A very simple question

Thank you for saying it!

I don't see what it proves.

I have personally never think that doping is only done by Africans athlete but all over the world.

Maybe I'm wrong but those performances changes nothing.

I really doubt Moh Ahmed is clean.

You say that doping is overrated and gives minimal advantage or no advantage. So if Moh Ahmed is clean, what do you think he would run for 5k after 1 or 2 years of full doping?

David Moorcroft set the WR in 1982 at 13mins. Nothing about him says PEDs.

Why would anyone doubt performances slightly faster than that given better training, better tracks, better shoes forty years later?

But 12:37 which no-one has sniffed in 15 years. Really?

So you are saying 12.47 is hardly faster than 13 and very likely to be clean but 12. 37 is another world and very likely to be on drugs?

So if you say bekele was cheating and Moh Ahmed is not, you are saying that Moh Ahmed is actually the GOAT of 5k?

I continue to have the stupid idea that 25%-50% of diamond league, WC, and Olympic races are won by people who have broken anti-doping rules because they have evidence that they couldn't win without doing so.

I have no idea about these athletes (could be great shoes) or the great El Guerrouj or Kenenisa Bekele (they are obviously very special). But for people like Rupp, Farah, Coleman, and Radcliffe, who have a record of suspicious behavior, missed tests, and/or damning test results, I think they have earned the skepticism they receive here and have done far too little to create transparency that might clear their names.

(I also have a bunch that you are one of the best coaches of our time and that you are an honest man.)

[hunch]

Sadly, all impressive performances, especially startling improvements, are deemed suspicious. The honest coaches and athletes are the true victims.

Renato, do you have an opinion about whether all of the "likely dopers" from the IAAF list exposed by Fancy Bears (e.g., Farah, Jaeger), or the dozens of athletes with Jama Aden when he was arrested with Epo (e.g. Dibaba and Dibaba) are likely to have innocent explanations. If so, I'm baffled by the fact that almost none of them has made the effort to address the suspicions publicly and literally none has given a plausible explanation. What about the tainted meat eaters? (I really want to believe that Ajee Wilson is clean.)

PoTD. The likelihood of doping also goes up when anti-doping regulations are not as stringent. That's why certain countries are questionable.

Lol maybe 0.01% of the running community believes that. Contrary to nonsensical belief, most people are in fact not racist. Imagine that.

Tired of it wrote:

PoTD. The likelihood of doping also goes up when anti-doping regulations are not as stringent. That's why certain countries are questionable.

+1

That's also why some athletes improve a lot during COVID 19. And that's part of why the 80s were the Wild West Era of Doping with at first no OOC testing (and legal blood transfusions) and then very rudimentary ones.

Renato Canova wrote:

Or, reversing what normally I say, "doping can only help black athletes living and running in altitude, but doesn't work on American athletes" ?

No one says that. Also, you know what Ahmed and Lomong look like right?

Can sub 12:55 be run clean? Maybe, but any performances at that level should be highly suspect. When you get down to 12:37 you have to believe in Santa.

I really don’t think it’s that unrealistic for some guy like Bekele, a genetic freak by pretty much all standards, can throw down some ridiculous times. What people don’t understand is the cultural difference in Ethiopia and Kenya of running vs America. Sure there are dopers in every country, but it is really that surprising that someone who is obviously very talented AND who has worked their whole life to be as fast as they can to run 12:37 or 3:26? In East Africa running isn’t just a “sport” as we see football or basketball. It’s a way to get money to provide for your family put food on the table. If you aren’t fast enough you can’t get those opportunities.

Also the world records all have superb pacing. Any world record attempt now has pacing that hits every split all the time. That is why it shouldn’t be surprising that Bowerman TC runs such fast times. Every time they race they hav perfect pacing to run as fast as possible. Same with Kipchoge’s sub 2 marathon. Extremely talent+hardwork+good genes+life at high altitude+good weather+amazing science+perfect pacing=a performance that will be insanely fast. It shouldn’t be surprising

Hi Rentao,

I agree that time trials lead to very quick times because of correct pacing. I would be surprised if Schweizer or Houlihan can challenge for medals in the 5000m though, as I don't think they will necessarily be able to replicate these times in a championship race.

and if they do replicate the times, they may find the east africans find something extra still to beat them

I pointed out several times that the PB of an athlete doesn't mean too much. I had 9 athletes running between 26'30" and 27' in 10000m, and other 9 between 12'48" and 12'59", and many of them were not "top talented" athletes. Inside my groups, I had the opportunity to see very big differences about the individual talents, but sometimes their PB was almost the same.

The difference ? Some of them were able to win, some other was only able to follow, and when they followed inside a group, following Kenenisa trying to better the WR, it was easy to run so fast. In Bruxelles, when Kenenisa went in 13'10" for the first 5 km, the group of 15 athletes went in 13'29", and from that race also the number 7 ran under 27'.

In Eugene, on 3.06.2011, Leonard Komon ran 26'55"29 arriving in 9th position.

In St. Denis, on 6.07.2012, John Kipkoech ran 12'49"50 arriving in 6th position.

In Oslo, on 7.06.2010, Alemayeuh Bezabeh ran 12'57"25 (7th) and Bekena Daba 12'58"51, arriving number 9.

Do you think these athletes were top champions ? They found a perfect pace, a perfect weather, and destroyed their previous PB.

Bezabeh, for example, ran in 13'10"10 (his second personal performance) in 2009, and in 13'14"91 (his 3rd performance) in 2013 : which was the reason of the sudden improvement of 13", if not the race conditions ?

Instead, the most part of LR posters have a wrong idea about the talent needed for running these times, and automatically think about doping. Can somebody suppose that Bezabeh and Daba had the same talent of Aouita, and were better than Moorcroft ?

Or, remaining to some my athlete, that Silas Kiplagat (3'27"64) could really be better than Cram, Coe and Aouita of 2" ?

Or, speaking about Marathon, that Jonathan Maiyo (2:04:56) was better than Tergat and Khannouchi ?

But if you understand what really is important for running fast, automatically start also to consider doping like something almost useless : the most doped athlete, in a competition with bad pacing a bad weather, can only run a bad performance, and, without a good training, runs a bad performance also with good pace and good weather conditions.

Also for "responders", blood manipulation (attention, NOT STEROIDS !!!!) can give only a very small advantage, and for "responders" to prolonged altitude training NOTHING. This is what really happens, in spite of every research made without involving the right subjects.

Renato Canova, does your belief that doping has no material effect on performance only relate to distance runners or do you also believe it has no effect upon sprints and middle distance? If you do believe that doping has a material effect upon performance at shorter distances, at what point (distance) do you believe that effect is diminished to the point of it not being material? In other words, what what distance does doping not have an effect?

I'm just trying to understand whether you also believe that 47.60 (400m) and 1:53.28 (800m) are clean WRs. If not, is there a reason to believe that 3:50.07 (1500m) and 4:12.33 (mile) are? Is there a magic cutoff somewhere between 800 and 1500 where doping no longer relays an advantage?

And after.... there are the idiots using USELESS doping WITH THE ONLY EFFECT TO DESTROY THEIR CAREER, because they could achieve the same results in clean way.

It's correct to ban these athletes, not because have some advantage (I speak about Kenyans), but because are stupid, unethical and push people to think that without doping is not possible to win.

There's a difference between thinking a thing is possible and thinking that thing is likely. It may very well be possible to be clean and better the times you mention but even so it does not necessarily mean that the people doing it are clean. though some may be.