the answer
I am not taking anything out of content; however, I am simply going by his interviews and autobiography. It is
GREAT to see you stand behind someone whom you admire, but it seems to me that you are trying to rationalize why he quit (I don't remember his excuse being training and I have read about his career countless times).
Vipam
vipam,
so are you implying that the WR holder and undefeated olympic champ retired solely because he was SCARED by some other runners coming up that he thought he might lose to? that sounds far fetched to me. you don't think it had anything to do with not wanting to train anymore and doing something else with his life?
the answer
I enjoyed this conversation with you; however, its going nowhere. I am saying that after reading his quotes, autobiography, and hearing an audio version of an interview with him saying, "he quit because he wanted to end his 1500/Mile career undefeated." Now, the answer I am going solely on what I have read and heard and that is a TREMENDOUS amount of material. Maybe you know Herb Elliott
personally is that why your saying that-if not go do some reading about Herb and draw a LEGTIMATE conclusion from that material.
Vipam
Later
Liz McColgan in the Worlds at Tokyo. She had a worse kick than Radcliffe so pressed on at the front early on and got her reward,
"he quit because he wanted to end his 1500/Mile career undefeated."
I don't see anything wrong with that... but who are you (or really, anyone here) to judge Elliott, anyway? Unless you're one of 4 americans capable of running faster than he ran over 40 years ago, I think you should reconsider. And yes, I don't think you're allowed to criticize someone that is faster than you, especially that much faster. If you met him you'd probably go home and jerk off recapitulating the experience in your mind.
Although it was only the US Olympic Trials I still think that Blake Russell was brave in her Olympic Trials Marathon; regardless of why or how she finished-she displayed courage in my opinion!-----------------------------
Vipam wrote:
There has been many brave performances in athletics; however, I was wondering who would garner bravest honors from a major championship (Worlds or Olympic)? Here's my top 5 and why:
1.) John Ngugi (Ken) 1988 Olympics-knowing that he lacked great finishing speed John injected a 60.2 lap early in the race and back off and a few laps later he ripped thru a mile in approx 4:00.5 opening almost 100 meter with 6 laps remaining. He held on for the victory!
2.) Paula Ivan (Rom) 1988 Olympics-having been outkicked by T. Samelenko in the 3000m, Paula blazed off the starting line and never let up winning in 3:53.6 (by over 6.5 seconds).
3.) Domingos Castro (Por) 1988 Olympics- having set in the pack after Ngugi's breakaway. The diminutive warrior tore after Ngugi eating into his lead slightly. With a mile to go he could he settled for the silver having over 60 meters on the 3rd place (pack) and 35 meters behind Ngugi. Domingos risked trying to catch Ngugi pushing himself beyond his limits, slowing tremendously the last two laps the sprinters caught him 10 meters from the line-
Domingos 4th.
4.) Paul Kipkoech (Ken) 1987 Worlds gave a new meaning to the term negative splits. After the field jogged a 14 something first 5000m, Paul tore thru the last 5000m in approx 13:11 winning easily.
5.) Paula Radcliffe (GBR) 2000 Olympics-everyone should know the story to this fearless athlete Olympic tragedy.
honorable mentions
Joan Benoit Sameulson (USA) 1984 women's 1st Marathon
Deena Drossin (USA) 2002 World X-Country Championship
Who would make your top five and why?
Regarding Viren: I think it was in Running With the Champions (Sandrock), it says that Viren's last 1500m in the 5k would have gotten him 4th in the 1500m final, time wise.
Without doubt:
1. Jim Peters (1954 Commonwealth Games Marathon) Collapsed 5 or 6 times in last 400m (over a period of 10 mins) before being carried off top hospital. He never competed again.
2. Vladimir Kuts and Gordon Pirie for their epic batttle in the 1956 Olympic 10,000. They almost ran each other to a standstill before Pirie cracked a few laps from the finish.
3. Ovett for the LA 1500.
4. Steve Jones in European Marathon
5. Murray Halberg Rome 5000
Surely one of the ?bravest? runs ever must have been run on the anchor leg of the women?s 4 by 100 relay at the 72 Olympics. I was there and picture the scene - the West German's had unexpectedly put their gold medal long jumper on the final leg and then really dropped her into it by handing over a yard up on the great East German team. I and most of my (male) friends really fancied Heide Rosendahl at that time. Not only was she a good-looker with a great body - she was also the daughter of a millionaire! Could it get any better? However, taking over just that yard behind her was the awesome Renate Stecher. She had won the 100 by a .16 margin and had also won the 200 in a new world record. So we sat back and waited for the inevitable. To this day I still remember the reaction in the (West German) stadium as we witnessed surely if not one of the bravest runs, must have been one of the most inspirational ever runs as Heide held that one yard advantage all the way to the tape. It should have been impossible for her to generate that sort of leg speed. Later, for some reason, she never did reply to all those marriage proposals, perhaps she didn?t understand English. Wonder what she looks like these days?
Gotta throw Bill Mills into the mix too. If I am not mistaken Mills ran a PR for the 5K during the first half of his Olympic 10K victory. Pretty gutsy move.
Herb Elliott while I think he was a very good athlete will never be an all-time great or considered brave in my opinion. The fact that he did go undefeated and break world records show that he was the best; however, his premature retirement at age 24 was cowardous at best. Yes most athletes want to go undefeated their entire careers; however, to quit at such a young age with years of improvement ahead of him-was crazy on his behalf and a terrible thing for track. Seb Coe was a better/braver competitor at Olympic/World Championships than Herb Elliott!
Vipam
That would be the same as Kenenisa Bekele quiting World Long Course X-Country since he is undefeated as a Senior competitor?
I only scanned this thread, but find it interesting that most define 'brave' as having no kick, knowing it, and trying to win by pressing the pace early or midway. I know I have been a coward by doing just that because I was uncomfortable enough that I feared a gut-busting kick/duel at the end. Just throwing out another angle for people to look at.
Probably the angle you should look at is not that the prementioned athletes feared kicks/duel at the end; however, they knew their strengths and despite the odds (unpopularity of frontrunning by elite athletes at major events) went with their strength in Olympic/Worlds. There are several athletes mentioned that had decent or great kicks but in order to improve their chances of winning took the race over and dominated it from the front, with great surges, or negative splits!
Vipam
I did not mean to imply that is why the elites mentioned pressed the pace. I was trying to get people to realize that there are many, many reasons why runners run the strategy they do and that to label anyone taking the pace in any circumstance as brave(as some posters seemed to do), is not 'always' correct. I agree with your last post. There are few athletes at the world level who are just plain 'ole slow, with a need to take the pace from the gun.
Ismael Kirui in the '93 World Champs 5K.
To quote commentator Steve Ovett... "This man is going into the land of unknown for 5,000m. He is ripping all the textbooks apart about how you should run, and how shouldn't run. He's simply gone and run his heart out." End of story...
hi skoolr