Should 5k guys do 10-12x 400m @mile pace w/ 1min jog recovery?

retired swimming coach wrote:

5k runners should do this set with no more than 30 seconds rest in order to improve their 5k time. Coached a runner 35 years ago using this set regularly on 1:30 send-off (yielding 20-25 sec rest). Over two years he improved his 400s from 68 to 64 and his 5k from 14:00 to 13:23

In this case he was running 5K pace, which makes more sense.

12x400 a mile pace with 60 sec rest is crazy, only doable if you suck badly at the mile. I usually do 6-8 at mile pace with 2 minutes as a peaking workout and it is typically one of the hardest workouts of the season.

Dial it in to whatever combination of reps & rest makes it feel like a hard but not killer workout. You don't want to go to the well, so try to finish knowing you could do 2 more reps. It will vary by person.

If you're asking whether 5k runners should be doing workouts at 1 mile race pace - yes absolutely. You should be running faster than race pace year round. What will vary is the length of the reps, number of reps, rest, etc.

12x400m with 1 min recovery should be done at 3k pace at best. Probably closer to 5k pace actually.

kmaclam wrote:

? wrote:

A moderately trained runner could accomplish this workout. I could high school and even new athletes can make it through 8 reps without struggling. It is far from an impossible workout.

No one said "impossible" ....BUT 12X 400 at mile race pace w/ 60 second jog??? How about highly improbable?

Agreed. I've never seen anyone accomplish this. The closest thing my former coach had us do was 2x (5×400m/90 sec brk)/ 5minute set rest. @mile pace.

Dan Henderson?

Crazy workout. I suppose it is possible as a tapered race-level effort, if jog recovery is very slow. It sounds like a pathway to injury.

In his Running Formula 2nd Ed, Daniel recommend this workout (actually it was 8-10x 400m R pace w/ 1min jog) in the third phase of the 1500m-3000m plan, but he notes that you shouldn't start too fast because this is a tough workout. So I was wondering if this workout could be useful for a 5k guy. And I've changed it to 10-12, because you, 5k training needs more volume.

Was also wondering if it would be useful to do some Fast Reps as he calls it, like 4x400 @800m pace with 600-800m jog recovery.

He doesn't recommend Fast Reps in any other plan besides 1500-3000m, but maybe it can be useful for 5k

A lot of posters love to split hairs over workouts. If you allow a 2:00 rest you'll run your 400s faster. It doesn't matter which rest period you choose.

'Fast reps' generally means that recovery is full. If 800 pace, better to do 200s with walk/stand full recovery. Focus on running strong and relaxed and fast. Keep It fun. It should not be an exercise in red-lining your heart and lungs through short recoveries. And end the workout while you still feel good. If after a few, you start to slow down, then you did too many.

And going back to your original question, doesn't Daniels' R pace refer to repeats, not intervals? Meaning that Daniels would recommend long recovery for a workout with R pace?

Oops I misread your original post, OP.

Dr. Pepper wrote:

Dan Henderson?

You are correct.

Impala31 wrote:

12x400 with 60" rest at mile pace is ridiculously hard.

The is no point doing this workout. 6-8x400 with 2'-3' rest is enough for mile.

1' min rest if you want to test yourself close to a race but not as regular workout. No point doing rest so short for a high intensity workout.

The classic is 10x400.

I find that with 1:30 rest (which is more than 1:1 rest:recovery, obviously), this is a hard workout but manageable for a HS or club runner. It should not be a flat-out 'racing' level effort to do it at mile pace.

With just 1:00 rest (less than 1:1 for most people), this becomes a very hard workout, for anyone. For most runners, I would reserve it for a true test of fitness nearing a peak, and the pace is a fairly close race pace predictor. Good college and post-collegiate sub-elites could do it more routinely, of course.

Sub16 5k guy wrote:

In his Running Formula 2nd Ed, Daniel recommend this workout (actually it was 8-10x 400m R pace w/ 1min jog) in the third phase of the 1500m-3000m plan, but he notes that you shouldn't start too fast because this is a tough workout. So I was wondering if this workout could be useful for a 5k guy. And I've changed it to 10-12, because you, 5k training needs more volume.

doing mile pace workout for 5k runner is necessary. 800 pace workout not so much but why not time to time.

But your logic is wrong. As a 5k guy you need more overall volume than a miler but at overall lower intensity. Not same intensity. With your logic, 10k guy should do 14x400 at mile pace marathoner should do 20x400 at mile pace with 1' rest which is impossible.

If you do a mile pace workout just do it like a miler would do. Don't add reps.

So if I am a 5:00 miler...I am running 75s with 60 seconds rest...If I am a 4:00 miler I am running 60s with 60sec rest. I'd rather be a 4:00miler with equal rest than a 5min miler with less than equal rest.

Seems a more common workout would be to break this up into sets of 4 with a 400m jog in between.

I remember a high school workout (this was back in the mid 60's) of 20X440 at 70 second pace with 70 second rest intervals. We could all keep up through the 12th repeat, but it became a quest of bravery to get through the 20th. And the pace slipped to 76s. I only remember doing it twice. We didn't have very good communications with the coach, so I don't know if he had a genuine training objective in mind, but it definitely ratcheted up the macho quotient of some on the team. That probably divided the team more than anything else.

When doing 400m with 30-60se rest, it's best to shoot for 3k-8k pace. You're working at nearly 100% Vo2 max and thus way slower than mile pace. 10-12 x 400m @ CURRENT 5k with :45 sec rest is a standard intro to Vo2 Max workout for someone doing 30-40 MPW. for a higher mileage athlete i.e. 70-100 MPW you could do 18-26 of these.

A good rule of thumb when running @ 1500m race pace is 1:1 jogging recovery. So if you are running 400m @ mile race pace, jog a 400m for recovery. (maybe 200m for a well trained Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber heavy athlete)

Gentleman Savage wrote:

actually faster than 99.9% of ppl on LRC wrote:

Sub 4 guy here. I would do 10x400 around mile pace with 400m jog rest once a season (2:00 drifting up closer to 2:30) and it would be a real ball buster, usually the hardest or 2nd hardest workout of the season. Best I ever did was averaging low 59s. I could have probably mustered 12 if I had to. If you can do 12x400 with 1:00 rest at a certain pace, that pace is either slower than your mile pace or you just suck at racing the mile and need to work on your speed. Spend a season ripping some 200s and 300s in workouts and racing a bunch of 800s. If OP is a high schooler, maybe that is the case, still a lot of room to develop there.

Best post on the thread so far!

There are some very knowledgeable coaches who have their kids do this kind of workout.

I'm talking about HOF coaches and ones who have won state titles. But, you are also risking running careers doing these workouts because they turn into races. Keep in mind the girls are watching. Save it for a race!

I do also believe that is not possible to accomplish this workout if you’re truly running your mile pace and a decently trained athlete, not even talking about pro or semi pro level.

I’m not fast, but not slow either for someone that started running in the late 20’s. I ran a 4:30 mi at age 32. It was my first time ever training for the mile l believe I did specific training for about 6-7 weeks after been racing 5ks earlier in the season. I did faster than pace 300’s with full recovery, I also ran 4x400m at 65 sec w/ like 2:30 rest and it was very hard to recover.

When I started training my 5k PR was 16:13 then my coach reduced my mileage and did much faster w/o that I was used to. I was very skeptical about running 4:30 but it did happen. I also ran a 5k like 2 weeks prior my Mile race as tune up. I was told to run comfortably first half then push, I ended up running a 15:55 after a very slow 1st mile like 5:20.

My point here is that you can’t really cheat your capabilities, it is true some people are better at middle distance races than long distance, and there’s many ways to accomplish proper training. I discover after that race that I was probably more suitable for middle distance than long distance.