You've been overdoing.
Adding miles can help or hurt your progress; the truth shows up in the training.
You've been overdoing.
Adding miles can help or hurt your progress; the truth shows up in the training.
RFF wrote:
Hi
Posting here again to get some feedback for my training.
I have found a nice balance now for 75-80 mpw. I just do two workouts per week
On Thursday and either 6x 2K , 4x 3K or 3x 4K
On Sunday hard long run 18-22 miles. Between 6:55 to 6:26 for 90% of the distance.
Rest of the days is easy/steady runs.
It seem like my body recover good between the sessions and so far no plateau.
Do you think I will continue to improve by this training ?
Only focus on half and full marathon.
3weeks ago I felt good when starting my long run so half way in decided to see how far I could run in 3 hours.
Marathon distance covered in 2:55:55
3 hours 26,8
Not fully exhausted after this and could continue normal training week after.
What could a taper and race situation do on that time?
Hi Asked for feedback on this post now.
The 3 hour run was before breakfast and no water or energy added during the Run, since it was not the plan to Run 3 hours
RFF wrote:
Hi
Posting here again to get some feedback for my training.
I have found a nice balance now for 75-80 mpw. I just do two workouts per week
On Thursday and either 6x 2K , 4x 3K or 3x 4K
On Sunday hard long run 18-22 miles. Between 6:55 to 6:26 for 90% of the distance.
Rest of the days is easy/steady runs.
It seem like my body recover good between the sessions and so far no plateau.
Do you think I will continue to improve by this training ?
Only focus on half and full marathon.
3weeks ago I felt good when starting my long run so half way in decided to see how far I could run in 3 hours.
Marathon distance covered in 2:55:55
3 hours 26,8
Not fully exhausted after this and could continue normal training week after.
What could a taper and race situation do on that time?
Nobody knows you will improve or not until you try and finish and see. It is very easy to see and control your improvement by weekly/2w/1m basis: check:
1) avg heart rate vs pace at easy run (heart rate should drop with the same pace or pace drop with the same heart rate)
2) avg pace at LT, 5k workouts drops with the same heart rate
And many others checks.
If some workouts does not work, try other. But do not be workout collector... and do not try by brute force hack your body...
Training principle is the same:
1) you train oxygen transport system (heart, blood, etc.)
2) you train consumers of oxygen - muscles
3) you train body to run economically at required speed.
Some runners have good one system, some another, some both. You have to figure out what is limiting you most of all and work preferably on it to get significant improvement. Of course, ideally you have develop everything to be well rounded runner. Put always targets in you training system even if target is impossible and absurd for you know, brain works in such way, that always needs determined path: from point A to point B. You will be surprised... Good teachers in the school told me: always put targets and impossible targets even better, you will be very surprised, when impossible target suddenly become possible.
Good luck!
Thank you, Canefis. Good input.
Today’s workout 18 miles at 6:29 average.
Congratulations on running a 2:55. Unless I missed it, you said your half PB was 1:23? If so I think that's a very good conversion made all the more impressive with the marathon run being in training. I think you're due a half marathon PB too of course!
My PB is 2:54 in a race off a half PB of 1:19; my marathon might be 2/3mins down on what it should have been, as I suffered with cramps in the last mile, and it was hot (Seville), so I may have been worth a 2:51...; but in any case, I couldn't have touched 2:55 in training without a taper. I may have been able to break 3:00 on a good day.
It is difficult to put a figure on it, but considering you didn't even start the run intending to race it, the lack of taper, the lack of water and gels, the lack of competition.... I would think there would be at least another 5mins to come off in a race, and more than likely you would break 2:50.
To be honest I think that is conservative - I'm not a runner who benefits much from being in a group (I tend to get distracted and get caught up in mini races); but if you are the type who thrives on competition but can keep a level head, then you may find an added benefit being in a proper race with the adrenaline flowing. So maybe 2:49 to 2:45?
I'm particularly interested in how you have structured your training - I'm currently coming back from injury; but when fit I was planning on incorporated long intervals like your 2k-4k ones in to my plan. Likely for an 8 to 12 week block, before some harder speed work like 6x1k (I posted a thread yesterday asking how to structure the speed work in my plan...). How much rest do you take for your intervals and how fast are the reps?
I think the high volume of them (are they always 12k?) is the real key.
Also, on your long runs, I see you run them quite hard, and hit marathon pace and faster? Are they progression runs? How do you find these? I find that paces in the 'marathon effort' vicinity are very tiring, and I'd be hard pushed to run at genuine marathon pace for more than 12 miles in training (within a longer run).
Do you see a benefit in pushing the pace on there runs, that you don't feel you get from LSD type runs?
Makemegetfast wrote:
Congratulations on running a 2:55. Unless I missed it, you said your half PB was 1:23? If so I think that's a very good conversion made all the more impressive with the marathon run being in training. I think you're due a half marathon PB too of course!
My PB is 2:54 in a race off a half PB of 1:19; my marathon might be 2/3mins down on what it should have been, as I suffered with cramps in the last mile, and it was hot (Seville), so I may have been worth a 2:51...; but in any case, I couldn't have touched 2:55 in training without a taper. I may have been able to break 3:00 on a good day.
It is difficult to put a figure on it, but considering you didn't even start the run intending to race it, the lack of taper, the lack of water and gels, the lack of competition.... I would think there would be at least another 5mins to come off in a race, and more than likely you would break 2:50.
To be honest I think that is conservative - I'm not a runner who benefits much from being in a group (I tend to get distracted and get caught up in mini races); but if you are the type who thrives on competition but can keep a level head, then you may find an added benefit being in a proper race with the adrenaline flowing. So maybe 2:49 to 2:45?
I'm particularly interested in how you have structured your training - I'm currently coming back from injury; but when fit I was planning on incorporated long intervals like your 2k-4k ones in to my plan. Likely for an 8 to 12 week block, before some harder speed work like 6x1k (I posted a thread yesterday asking how to structure the speed work in my plan...). How much rest do you take for your intervals and how fast are the reps?
I think the high volume of them (are they always 12k?) is the real key.
Also, on your long runs, I see you run them quite hard, and hit marathon pace and faster? Are they progression runs? How do you find these? I find that paces in the 'marathon effort' vicinity are very tiring, and I'd be hard pushed to run at genuine marathon pace for more than 12 miles in training (within a longer run).
Do you see a benefit in pushing the pace on there runs, that you don't feel you get from LSD type runs?
To be honest I don`t know much about how to structure training, but I have found a way that woks for me so far.
This is how my weeks looks like.
Monday: 6 miles really easy
Tuesday: 10-11 miles easy just by feel
Wednesday: 9 miles easy just by feel
Thursday: 6x2K (2min jog rest) 4x3K (2min jog rest) 3x4K 3min jog rest) First week 6x2 next week4x3 and when I hit the 2x4K workout I try a little faster next 6x 2K
Friday: 12 easy just by feel
Saturday: 8 really easy
Sunday: 18-22 miles long run. Start at about 7:06 pace after 2 miles I try to do the rest between 6:45-6:19.
Since I just focus and HM and Marathon I believe in long intervalls and hard long runs.
As I said , don`t know much about how to structure training.
But so far this feels good and always recovered for the two workouts. I tried before with 2 workouts and the long run, that did not work for me. To hard for me.
If 75 miles is a lot for you, and you've been doing it for 5 weeks straight, it's time to take an off-week. Back off the mileage and intensity and allow your body to rest and adapt. Usually when increasing your mileage, it's best 2 up weeks in a row, then a down week.
RFF wrote:
To be honest I don`t know much about how to structure training, but I have found a way that woks for me so far.
This is how my weeks looks like.
Monday: 6 miles really easy
Tuesday: 10-11 miles easy just by feel
Wednesday: 9 miles easy just by feel
Thursday: 6x2K (2min jog rest) 4x3K (2min jog rest) 3x4K 3min jog rest) First week 6x2 next week4x3 and when I hit the 2x4K workout I try a little faster next 6x 2K
Friday: 12 easy just by feel
Saturday: 8 really easy
Sunday: 18-22 miles long run. Start at about 7:06 pace after 2 miles I try to do the rest between 6:45-6:19.
Since I just focus and HM and Marathon I believe in long intervalls and hard long runs.
As I said , don`t know much about how to structure training.
But so far this feels good and always recovered for the two workouts. I tried before with 2 workouts and the long run, that did not work for me. To hard for me.
Looks good. I don't know a great amount either on the structure side; but I'm starting to understand that there can be lots of valid approaches. Are you familiar with the work of Stephen Seiler the exercise physiologist?
From what I understand, he considers detailed periodisation of much lesser importance, than other factors such as:
1. High total training frequency and volume
2. Doing some higher intensity work
3. Getting the right 'intensity distribution' i.e. the ratio of high intensity work to easier sessions; which his studies of elite training habits peg around 80:20, but with some variation during the season. Coined the phrase polarised training.
Your training looks like it hits those three bases nicely. I also find 2 workouts per week is optimal, with one or those being the long run. On occasion, I have been able to handle three in a week (including the long run), but only if the long run is 12-13 miles.... Which starts to get in to 'doesn't even count as a long run' territory, and isn't going to cut it for marathon training.
The way you handle the progression of mid week workouts is also in agreement with Seiler's studies. Those reported that elite athletes first seek to extend the sessions (so moving up from 2k, 3k, 4k), before they seek to intensify them with a pace increase. This is at odds with a lot of runners who try to run faster each week, when they might be better served keeping the same effort level, but extending the length of the reps instead; or even increasing the overall volume of the workout. It looks like your training does this nicely.
Much of Seilers work is based on studying the training of elite athletes - it's important to note that he didn't 'come up' with the ideas himself; rather he just collated what elite athletes tend to do, across all endurance sports, and noticed patterns that others had failed to identify. He's also extended that, by showing that the training habits of the best, can also filter down and be used to great effect by good amateurs. And has done studies to back up the fact that in general longer intervals for a greater volume (but at a slightly slower pace, think 90%) are more effective than their shorter/faster (95%) counterparts.
I thought this might be of interest to you, as you seem to be having suceess with your system, which is similar to Seilers recommendations, in many aspects.
My understanding of all this is limited, but I'm learning more as I read - I thought the parallels between your training and the studies were particularly interesting.
Last week two workouts
3x 4K mile pace 5:51 (treadmill)
21 miles in 2:17:57 (Avarage 6:32) Tough but not to tough. Felt good
What do you guys think my estimated MP pace could be and does the pace on the intervals on this week correspond with this?