Will I Ever Be Fast? a training thread

It's a nice place to start. After my injury rehabilitation, I started with the white plan, then moved to the red and then to the Blue plan. Good luck!

Don't discredit how much the hot/humid weather affects your running. I am a 30yo female hobbyjogger that lives in Tampa, FL. I took up running mid-2015 and haven't looked back since (never did anything in high school so only 5ish years of running). You really need to compare summer vs summer and winter vs winter when you can.

For reference, I get out in early mornings around 5:40am - it is usually already 80 degrees with 75-79% relative humidity. My easy pace slows down 30-45 seconds/mile in the summer over the winter.

This might be TMI but the weekish before your period is usually extra brutal in the summer since you already are slightly hotter and aren't able to disperse heat as easily, but conversely the days following you will run better.

It's not TMI!! To me, it's a bit different from heat and humidity (which have a more obvious influence from the start - and seem to make the recovery harder), but it definitely takes its toll on the body and I'm just unable to hit paces depending on the workout. The worst day for me is when I'm about to get my period and, sometimes, doing a long run this day will lead to severe cramps, though it doesn't seem to affect recovery as much. I have finally learned to plan for a down week and will try to plan workouts in accordance with the supposedly better performance days of the cycle.

I also live in a swamp wrote:

Don't discredit how much the hot/humid weather affects your running. I am a 30yo female hobbyjogger that lives in Tampa, FL. I took up running mid-2015 and haven't looked back since (never did anything in high school so only 5ish years of running). You really need to compare summer vs summer and winter vs winter when you can.

For reference, I get out in early mornings around 5:40am - it is usually already 80 degrees with 75-79% relative humidity. My easy pace slows down 30-45 seconds/mile in the summer over the winter.

This might be TMI but the weekish before your period is usually extra brutal in the summer since you already are slightly hotter and aren't able to disperse heat as easily, but conversely the days following you will run better.

This makes me feel so much better - I'm not originally from here so this is my first summer running in this heat & humidity!

Also no worries - not tmi at all. It's an important part of being a female runner and I feel like it always gets swept under the rug. I'm on the pill and actually skip my period weeks every other pack. But I've always wondered how it affects me and am currently considering going to a non hormonal method (maybe copper iud) just to see what happens (maybe that 10lbs I gained going on the pill will go away LOL).

I've had a copper IUD for a little over an year now. It took me several months to get used to it (intense cramps and then heavy flow - nothing severe, but it used to be super light). I also had a super severe and long lasting breakout. It can't be directly linked to the IUD and I've had such problems before, that's why I was adviced against the hormonal IUD. But since I was in so much pain, my dermatologist believes it could indeed have some relation. The cramps and flow are super manageable now.

I honestly don't know if I would do it again, if I knew exactly how it would be. I 100% wouldn't or would have gotten it out already if I felt good on the pill. I've talked to a lot of women about it and it tended to fall in a love/hate category for most.

Hi guys, I'm currently on week 7 of Jack Daniel's red plan. Weeks 5-8 involve 4 runs; this is what I've been doing in the current phase:

1. 35 min easy plus 6 strides

2. 1 mile warmup, 12 min threshold, 6 min threshold, 1 mile cool down

3. 1 mile warm up, 2x6 min threshold, 2x4 min threshold, 1 mile cool down

4. 50 minutes easy (looking to increase this this week to closer to 60 minutes)

I've averaged over 15 miles a week hitting 16 last week. My threshold pace according to the chart is 9:20, but I'm able to hit around 9 flat without much difficulty. I have been able to hit all of my paces in this 90 degree weather.

I think I'm ready to do a 5k time trial. It's supposed to cool down starting next week, and I've been feeling strong lately. No more hamstring issues (knock on wood) so also considering adding in a 5th day. It'll also be good to get updated paces before heading into the next phase of the red plan.

Thanks for the update! Looks like good progress! Good idea to recalibrate the paces. I find solo time trials tough, so don't put too much pressure on yourself with it.

I give you advice.

Base building has several keys:

1) your easy runs should be minimum 1 hour per one time in the beginning

2) When adapt, try include medium runs at 1.5 hour minimum and 1 long run per week

3) Base building question: "how many hours per week and how many month total?" - simple reply:

if you want VDOT 60 - 5 hours per week constantly keep volume within 2-3-4 months

if you want VDOT 62- 6 hours

.... VDOT 70-12 hours

Increase shape by +1 VDOT (calculation not buy easy runs, but by TT tests) to existing shape is equal approx. +-60 hours of total running, but take into account above weekly volume.

In base period you will lose some muscles strength and sharpness unfortunately, and it cannot be avoided (ok, you can try to hold by stato-dinamic exercises, core workouts, sprints, etc...)

4) Do not make any LT/ Tempo /Intervals high intensity workouts, otherwise you stop base building and reach plateau faster, and level of plateau will be lower than if you build base only and than to proceed with high intensity training.

5) During base building you should make some tricks with your mind and DNA:

- You have to build mitochondria not only in legs, but in another part of your body, why?

All creatures in the universe try to take minimum space and minimum use of energy, and if something is exceeding in your body will not hold long time if you don't use it, the body simply dump it. If you don't have enough oxygen consumers (muscles) body blood system will not increase capacity-heart stroke volume, capillary, etc because there is a blockage in DNA, which simply no give order to increase your heart system capacity, you don't need so much, if you train legs only. I hope it will be understood. So what to do? Between runs train hands, back - ski, sup surfing, etc.. it will allow to increase heart more, (DNA will give a command due to fact of increased % of mitochondria in the whole body), than if you have trained legs only. This is the main secret of base building.

Once you reach desired VDOT (potential to run fast pace), proceed with muscles building phase (tempo, LT, repeats etc...) in order to teach your body to run at race desired pace necessary time+specific trainings for various race distance like a Half marathon/Marathon

Of course, this is only advice, which has huge +, but also "-"

Minuses:

- very difficult after base jump directly to muscles building mentally and physically. Required recover very well and super fast;

- you focus only 1-2 races per year, and cannot race to often;

- muscles building phase also is longer than if you use classic approach with some high strength training during base building

Pluses:

-higher potential with 1-2 races per year with PR

-higher progress in the future

Have you ever tried the golden plan? It's another great coach behind it. He is coach JS.

The master of low mileage training.

I don't wish to derail the thread, since turtlegirl already has a training plan and thus this advice is probably not too relevant just now. But I was intrigued by what you wrote above. It is possible that it does make sense, e.g. in a sport like cross-country skiing I can imagine higher stroke volume due to the need to power the arms as well as the legs. But it is unorthodox advice in a running context. Do you have a reference to any studies which support this?

Ohh. This is complicated staff. This idea was shared with me by one of the great cyclist, he discovered for himself, when he stuck with his progress just near the Master degree , and could not move higher and got limit by heart stroke volume and not by muscle power. And one season he tried together with base building during his cycling extra cross training "rowing", and after few months on cycle he discovered that he progressed more, then he checked his heart stroke volume and found it increased. Finally he got master degree in cycling.

This information he shared of one of the Ukrainian cyclist forum of the city "Kharkiv" his name is Yura. I need to find his posts. This is very interesting information.

Also he told us that body somehow trace quantity of mitochondria in all body and based on this information DNA give a command to grow heart system accordingly more, but if you don't use some mitochondria in one of the part of the body, they gone, and heart stroke volume automatically decrease (body always try to be economical and dump everything unnecessary).

During my base running I used same principal: together with running I developed mitochondria in another muscles: I made every day rowing on the sup -1, 2 hours constantly per day, also I was windsurfing every day by 3-5 hours during last 6 years 365 days per year when not on board; also 3 months I was made some repair in my new apartment and scratched all walls by hands and scrapper every day about 4 hours (aerobic training of my hands) :-), so that's why my base building was so fast in running.

I will try to find Yura's comments and study research regarding correlation mitochondria vs heart stroke volume.

Another things what I noticed from Yura, that you should always keep constantly some weekly volume of running and it is directly correlated to heart stroke volume.

Here is the research:

Alan Couzens "How trainable is VO2max Really?"

Following your progression with interest, always good seeing others out there striving. It looks like you have a good plan :-). Hope you get that cooler weather, it is now turning where I am, amazing how different it feels!

Currently about 18 months into trying to gain some fitness after a long (12yr) lay-off myself. I’ve dabbled with Jack Daniels plans a couple times and will share that for me (better speed than endurance like you) I found have to use a couple vdot levels, depending on the workout. Using a 1 mile effort to set vdot, the training paces are good for short stuff, but too fast for longer runs/intervals. A recent 10k TT gives a lower vdot, can hit the workout paces for long runs/longer intervals. I guess I’m saying, don’t have to strictly follow the vdot you get from your upcoming 5k TT, still might want to adjust based on feel and runner-type.

One other thing I’ll share, it took me 6 months of steady work to get past ~10miles/week. Then, when my body could handle it, it was a ramp up to about 35mpw over the next 6. Little injury, slight regression, now up to 40mpw. More important (fun!) than just miles, went from 35min 5k off the couch (aka “the wake up call”) to 22 min 5k a year later (HS PR of 17:23).

Enjoy the journey :-)

Cheers ?

What is happening in reality?

The good runner "Master" or lower is doing his constant running weekly volume, lets say 160 km (100miles) and keep his body in shape (VDOT74-76) and only little growing up or down during year by year just oscillate, why? Everybody will say, he reached his genetic potential, and they will be correct. But, if you dig deeper, you will see, that there is a possibility to shift genetic plateau little more up, how? - Developed athletes most commonly have reached their limit not by muscles, but by heart system (not enough oxygen to run faster), they can try to increase weekly volume more, sometimes it will help.

Joggers, Nubs like we have limit most commonly by muscles and by heart+muscles together. Train the muscles is very easy, but train the heart is not.

You will not see that "Master'' runner is doing weekly volume less than some common value-14-16 hours per week, why? because he will loose his existing shape.

Everybody try to say that volume is not a point, even Mister Canova said: that volume is not a point, but his athletes anyway are doing a huge amount of easy miles -200-240 km, why? Canova says - it is for recovery.... don't make me lough, for recovery you need more sleep than run, why his athlete will not try to run less mileage, if he thinks that mileage are not important? I will tell you why- because their heart system will go down - capillary, heart will shrink back, mitochondria will gone, that is simple and they will slow down.

Nubs like we are doing less than 12 hours per week, and for us is the best advice, like Canova says: - increase easy mileage until infinite and no injure 3-5 years to develop aerobic base (heart system) and than to proceed, but to keep this base you should continue to maintain weekly volume, otherwise you will go back. This weekly volume is not absolute numbers for everybody, each person required a different weekly volume in order to keep their shape on the same level, for example: to keep VDOT at 70 athlete "A" need to run 12 hours per week, but athlete "B" only may run 10 hours per week and other athlete "C" need run 14 hours per week to hold same VDOT=70. Difference due to different races and body muscles composition (fast twitch, slow twitch, etc.)

You have to find for yourself what volume is necessary for desired VDOT/shape (target for PR at race etc.), and if you run less hours than need you will never reach your shape, or reach after many years which is not effective.

But of course, there are some average weekly run hours for desired shape, for VDOT=70 - - 12hours+-2 hours; 74-14hours-+2; 80- 17-18hours-+2 and so on....

Young athletes:

1) Good muscles (a lot of hormones)

2) During LT-IT intervals they very easy reach desired heart rate zone (muscles good, but heart system is limit them)-breezing extremely hard, legs feeling is very easy, so that why cannot run faster

3) Easy to stress the body

4) Need sleep more hours

Older athletes:

1) Good aerobic base (heart system)

2) During LT-IT intervals very hard to reach desired heart rate zone -breezing is perfect, legs feeling is very hard, but pulse is very low....

3) Muscles are weak (so that why pulse is very low, cannot run faster)

4) Need sleep less hours

4) More resistant against stress and illnesses and this is the reason why muscles are growing slower.

Sometimes is hard to determine LT/IT paces correctly due to dis-balance of heart system capacity vs muscles capacity.

Canefis wrote:

Young athletes:

1) Good muscles (a lot of hormones)

2) During LT-IT intervals they very easy reach desired heart rate zone (muscles good, but heart system is limit them)-breezing extremely hard, legs feeling is very easy, so that why cannot run faster

3) Easy to stress the body

4) Need sleep more hours

Older athletes:

1) Good aerobic base (heart system)

2) During LT-IT intervals very hard to reach desired heart rate zone -breezing is perfect, legs feeling is very hard, but pulse is very low....

3) Muscles are weak (so that why pulse is very low, cannot run faster)

4) Need sleep less hours

4) More resistant against stress and illnesses and this is the reason why muscles are growing slower.

Sometimes is hard to determine LT/IT paces correctly due to dis-balance of heart system capacity vs muscles capacity.

Very interesting advice/theories Canefis! However, I currently have a training plan I'm following and am not really looking for every one of my runs to >90 minutes. Maybe the forum would find it interesting and valuable if you made your own separate thread about it.

That's awesome. It's definitely tough starting up again, and it's nice to see that going well for you. Gives me hope for myself haha! Right now I'm feeling comfortable with the 15/16 miles a week I've been doing fro the last 6ish weeks - no hip flexor issues as in the past when I've hit this point! I'm hoping to slowly push that up to 30 with Pfitz's base plan once fall sets in and I've completed Daniel's red plan.

I definitely agree with you on the multiple vdot levels depending on interval distance and will adjust as the intervals get longer and I won't be able to rely on my speed as much. I'm also trying to build up my endurance a little more aggressively than what the plan calls for since I know that's a weak area by tacking on an extra 5-15 minutes on the easy and long runs.

Best of luck with your progress!!

turtlegirl wrote:

I'm also trying to build up my endurance a little more aggressively than what the plan calls for since I know that's a weak area by tacking on an extra 5-15 minutes on the easy and long runs.

Best of luck with your progress!!

Extra easy running sounds wise, the big gains will come from endurance. Thanks and same to you! Rooting for you from the interwebs ?

Little bit of any update. Haven't tt'd a 5k yet, I think I really need to find someone to run with in order to get to my full current potential.

I've averaged ~17 mpw the last few weeks. Still basically the same 4 run schedule although one of the cruise interval days is now a 20 minute tempo plus warmup & cool down. I'm planning on staying around here or just moving up to 20 until I have no niggles then want to increase to 30 mpw.

I did a 5 mile run yesterday averaging 9:09/mile and felt like I was working throughout it but not too hard. Splits: 9:27, 9:29, 9:17, 8:46, 8:39. So I'm 99% sure I can run a better 5k just not quite sure how fast. Any pacing ideas?

turtlegirl wrote:

Little bit of any update. Haven't tt'd a 5k yet, I think I really need to find someone to run with in order to get to my full current potential.

I've averaged ~17 mpw the last few weeks. Still basically the same 4 run schedule although one of the cruise interval days is now a 20 minute tempo plus warmup & cool down. I'm planning on staying around here or just moving up to 20 until I have no niggles then want to increase to 30 mpw.

I did a 5 mile run yesterday averaging 9:09/mile and felt like I was working throughout it but not too hard. Splits: 9:27, 9:29, 9:17, 8:46, 8:39. So I'm 99% sure I can run a better 5k just not quite sure how fast. Any pacing ideas?

How would you rate your last 2 miles(8:46, 8:39), on a scale from 6 - very easy, barely feeling any effort to 20 - very hard, almost dying? Would you be able to run another 1.1 miles around 8:40? If so, you're in for a mid-26, which is already a huge improvement compared to your first post. I'm guessing that you can do even better than that, so a sub-26 wouldn't be surprising.