Now I see why you can't get away with not doing speedwork

And even the training runs are crazy and way beyond my threshold. My threshold pace are what McMilland say is the slowest time I should have during a steady state run, what aerobic beasts is this calculator based on? Wouldn't be surprised that so many are running to hard in training if they use this calculator as a basis.

Thanks Guppy, love your answers! Just one more question - you say a few workouts at 800-1500 meter pace. How many would be a few, and would you still do these if you are racing the 800 and 1500 at many of the meets during outdoor (assuming for a 1500 meter runner, and for a 5k runner).

I would say be careful plugging 400m/800m times in any calculator, to determine long distance training paces.

If you can run a 2:20 marathon, then you could likely achieve 51/1:52, but the opposite is not true, especially for mid-d specialists.

These short events are largely determined by speed and not by "aerobic capability".

If you are training for a 10K, use a 5K, 10K or 15K as an input.

Antonio, you knew John Hadd and I didn't. But I read his (and your) posts carefully, and I don't recognize Hadd's good manners in those threads, nor his style either. Are you sure he posted as Ö?

tromala wrote:

Good question thanks, and i start the question with a question for you.

On both threads you don´t recognise John Hadd training or you just don´t recognise the manners and the usual style or you don´t recognise both ?

I suggest that you see film Edge of the City, 1957 American drama film directed by Martin Ritt, starring John Cassavetes and Sidney Poitier.

Anyhow if you can´t see the movie just read the Plot in the wikipedia

This can answer to the question why Hadd wasn´t assertive at all as usual. When someone is provocative to other either a peaceful man can turn on agressive.

Of course, here it´s not the question to die the other that did provoque him, however it was his way to react to some provocation. Read both threads careful and you try to know who was been provocative on him, the ones that fight him on that threads, they are the same that did provoque him personally and the sames that do tried to provoque me.

There if you want to post anonymous, out of a nickname you use a mask for not be identify at first instance. His mask in then case was to write as a different writing style, something he got some talent, because soem people from english mother language did taught he was american or british when he was a proud scotish that did fight for Scotland independence.

I also i am very generous, I´m gentle in my relationships currently until the moment i see someone doesn´t correct procedure.

I give you credit on that, and many times he was way more patient than anyone could expect or demand, but It seems strange that he wrote in a irrespectful way about Lydiard here, as he did the opposite before

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4030549&page=15

Was he just trying to "épater le bourgeois?"

tromala

épater le bourgeois - french but very well done. I understand.

For what he told me he di decide to post and change of mood for one main reason.

One is because wetcoast/keshall (thje Lydiard journalist/reporter) got some interest on his training eventually, and by email share showed interest in a interview Hadd but with the condition he didn´t comment on Lydiard training.

The same condition he did on me. However as i was allowed by Hadd previously i didn´t refuse because i wanted to see to what point the hypocrisy and tendentiously of that man goes to.

Hadd turn on very emotional after that interview proposal with the confine of not comment on Lydiard because because he understood that as in most of the cases, the Lydiardism wants to profit from other people out of the Lydiardism to spread the idea that "we are all Lydiard". They tried do that with Peter Coe, they tried to do that with James Li nd some others, while they tried to make us trust that heir training is Lydiard or Lydiard based. Until recently they tried at all coast and in several attempts to turn on teh famous Renato Canova to the side of the Lydiard barricade, but finnally they understood that is impossible to turn on on individuals of great character as Renato is and after all it would need to make him play of training travesty to turn him as a Lydiard coach.

Actually they changed of strategy. On NorthernStar, the young boy that with no coach experience and in a few years imagines that he got training knowledge and authority to write long texts about several well known training methods. they did advice him to be in silence and be out of posts on LetsRunCom because what he could post cold be dangerous for the Lydiard cause.

In the specific case of John Hadd he did refuse the interview, because felt that not fair, to confine and limit and not able him to comment about whatever he wanted about distance training.

Then he did an analysis of the of some of the Lydiardism. They want to use and profit from the aspects of John Hadd training that are similar to Lydiard training to make propaganda and turn on John Hadd as one more Lydiard flag.

When they did read "2 kind of runners" mine and John thread they felt challenged by our ideas. hum....individual training ? ?hum...Different training for different individuals ? ?First glance they felt surprise, second glance they tried to analyse what´s similar to Lydiard, and then as i was a lost case for the Lydiard cause, they did try to take John for the Lydiardism cause. As John didn´t tremble and stayed strong and did deny to be identified with Lydiard training then they moved to another kind of comments on John and mine training by fibre discrimination. They contest that fiber idea because according them ther´s no scientific prove what kind of fiber is predominant runner in one runner, just with biopsis. As the training that Lydiard ever was built by Lydiard with scientific accuracy before be done by Lydiard trial and error mostly.

There, after some time of be desiluded and offended with some of the Lydiardism when he did realise how are some of their methods, and that during that period i always ask him for be moderate, as i´m not able to be, he decided to post something anonymous on LetsRunCom with his own thinking about Lydiard and the degenerative Lydiard adepts.

As i said before, in my opinion his best Lydiard comments were another thread that he didn´t open but he did post but it was deleted later. I did one copy before hat was gone, it´s on that thread that he got distant from the Lydiard training, namely the refuse to prescribe the "Lydiard aerobic first", and he showed the opinion that is impossible to get the best aerobic progress with the miss of interval training for one long period - as the Lydiard training does. On that thread that was deleted he did did support the interest of interval usage at every stage of preparation by scientific articles he did quote.

Do you understand better the reason, the motive and the rush mood he did post as he did as O with trema ? He did it because he was a man of he north - scotish - and is in that kind of nordic regions that the letter O with a trema is part of that alphabets.

I hope that i could reveal to you part of the veiled reason.

This is Hadd´s facet when he wanted to be polite and assertive as strategy to satisfy the others the Lydiardism in this case and don´t want controversy.

I could say much more that will surprise you eventually, but i don´t want to be too much personal.

Another detail before i go, the sentence that is a sound bite that i use often that is "Lydiard first is a stupidity it´s was Hadd that wrote me that sentence in one email.

Why was that thread deleted? Could you send it to me?

I don't understand the dogmatic posture of so many Lydiard followers. He was, in my opinion, a great coach, and a decisive influence in the development and the popularization of our sport... forty years ago. You seem to imply that it is a matter of business. Well, I don't know and I really don't care. But there are too many interesting threads in LR about training that turn into disputes about the real merits of Lydiard.

Turning to these days: Why do you think that European distance runners have almost disappeared from the first line? Is it because of desinterest of the young about athletics or because of wrong training? Specially Portugal, but even Spain and Italy are not big countries, and the three used to have very good distance runners, which obviously is not the case now. There coaches, I believe, were not strong Lydiardists, by the way.

Thanks.

Just in case you accept to send me that deleted thread...

I don´t know why the thread was deleted. How should i know ? Might be because i did post anonymous on that thread ! (kidding)

About John Hadd early and late comments on Lydiard training Early he said that "my training is Lydiard".

Let me see if i can make you undertand.

You see, when someone comes close to you and ask you what you think about one issue (Lydiard training) that his dogma axiom is "Lydiard the perfect training" ther´s nothing to answer out o "I also i´m a Lydiard" or "i just follow Lydiard".

Why ? The answer is in the sentence "don´t give pearls to the pigs" that is the same that to waist your time try to teach other about your idea to the one that doesn´t accept your different idea, it´s useless to try to teach something to the individual that got previous ideas made in stone, that his idea is nothing but a pre-concept, in the poor meaning of a pre-concept (something unchangeable).

There Hadd taught to himself, why shall i make an effort and be generous to someone that ask me questions but just wants that i got an answer that is just equal to the preconceived idea they ot about that issue of the answer ?

There, his way to avoid to be inconvenient to those people it´s to say what it pleases them. There the logical assertive answer "my training is Lydiard".

However somehow he said the truth about his training be Lydiard. He emphasis the aerobic interest in the long distance approach, and a few other Lydiard principles. I also share. i said that aerobics is very important, it´s fundamental in the distance training approach. The problem is that is neither learned from Lydiard and also this is one principle but the apllication of that principle is different, therefore we got very different training organization, diffrent periodisation, different way to see every single training issue diffrent from Lydiard.

Also i and John we do accept Lydiard as a great coach master, but we don´t accept to link that as the Lydiardism, we don´t accept that Lydiard is the lead, or ever be the world lead of training methodology, we don´t accept that he got a perfect training, we don´t accept that Lydiard is as the sun the solar system, that he represents the sun where every other training method are just planets going around or be attached by the majestic of the sun.We don´t accept that despite Lydiard did outstand performances with his runners - it´s a fact no one can deny he did either - that is training goes to be enthroned as the worlds best training, the perfect training the more 40 years later. Finally we don´t accept Lydiard clone coaches or Lydiard revised.

However the "don´t give pearls to pigs, but treat them politely " finishes for John Hadd the day they wanted to profit from his own training method, his ow training idea, to spread the idea he is a Lydiard fundamentalist, that they want to know Hadd training ideas but they don´t accept his Lydiard criticism, they want to take him as Lydiard clown, as some of them they are.

Then after some moment he moved from letargie and be polite and passes to his late strategy - the attack with his own opinion they like it or they don´t.

As he doesn´t agree that one of the Lydiardism strategy is to ask for my identification, when themselves, one for each other a few of them they post anonymous without complain, there he decided to post anonymous as well, in solidarity with myself.

I will try to send you the thread file, but i need to search in several my computers, and i can search after new year eve. But if i got it, i will send you or i will post in the LetsRunCom eventually.

The answer about Iberia (Portugal and Spain) or european rise and fall i left for one next post because it´s one very interesting issue of debate but takes a complex and extend answer, because it´snot a question with an straight answer.

In my opinion one clue of that answer lies on the training method.

I forget this one. What did the McMillan runner that Hadd comments on that "macMIllan" thread he did open up ? The one that was a promise that did 2h12m in his first marathon attempt, and that some sees it as the new olympic american winner, the new Frak Shorter, the new Bill Rodgers, the new Ryan Hall with a great future ahead.

As "time is the great master" because facts are facts, it would be interesting to take a look on that runner and see if Hadd was right or wrong or the Lydiardists were right or wrong.

It would be interesting to see what was been the effect on Lydiard training by macMillan on that runner.

as a former Lydiard disciple - who still has a lot of respect for the guy as a pioneer - I've really enjoyed your posts, Antonio, and have benefitted from your willingness to share insight & methodology.

CHRIS MATTHEWS wrote:

as a former Lydiard disciple - who still has a lot of respect for the guy as a pioneer - I've really enjoyed your posts, Antonio, and have benefitted from your willingness to share insight & methodology.

Don´t feel locked in something good you have learned. Take something and leave something you have learned. You can have something that you have learned, just rich part of that and later add that to something new, something else you have learned from another source of knowledge.