Come on -you are constructing a disagreement that doesn’t exists -of course Narve has trained for 5 and 10000m (especially the period he went for the 10000m). And of course his current training is transformed in the way Gjert and Narve suggest! But Narve has all the way mastered the shorter distances better -his indoor 3 k isn’t even a random example…
My point is this: Narve is not a half marathoner / 10k runner who suddenly stepped down. And I’m not really sure he will not run an excellent 3/5k with his current down stepped training….
Regarding “talent” -Narve / Jakob / Henrik all are saying the same: Consistent training is the way most important. Maybe the ability to that is an athlete’s greatest talent..!
Its important to avoid misunderstandings, I agree. My point wasn't that he was more talented for longer distances, but that his training was for longer distances. He was a 5/10K runner and thats where he excelled and focused his competitions.
Regarding talent, its so obvious he has a huge talent. Of course consistent training is important, great talent plus great training equals great results, as seen in Jakob, but the talent needs to be there. You dont run as fast as running legends on good training only. Remember, a lot of norwegians are doing the same and are not even remotely close to these results.
At the top level in sports the incentive is to dope; the rewards for success make it so,
The financial reward for Nordås has been miserable thus far in his career. Financial gain is not the motivation for young athletes in Norway. The general standard of living is far too high in that regard. And the bottleneck is far too narrow. In addition, there is the risk of being caught with national shame as a consequence. However, Africans and others from impoverished countries will have strong incentives to resort to doping for success. It represents the only possible opportunity to turn poverty into wealth. Hence, it is to be expected to a greater extent that individuals from more impoverished backgrounds would resort to doping compared to people from affluent countries, where more money is also invested in anti-doping efforts.
My point is this: Narve is not a half marathoner / 10k runner who suddenly stepped down. And I’m not really sure he will not run an excellent 3/5k with his current down stepped training….
Regarding “talent” -Narve / Jakob / Henrik all are saying the same: Consistent training is the way most important. Maybe the ability to that is an athlete’s greatest talent..!
Its important to avoid misunderstandings, I agree. My point wasn't that he was more talented for longer distances, but that his training was for longer distances. He was a 5/10K runner and thats where he excelled and focused his competitions.
Regarding talent, its so obvious he has a huge talent. Of course consistent training is important, great talent plus great training equals great results, as seen in Jakob, but the talent needs to be there. You dont run as fast as running legends on good training only. Remember, a lot of norwegians are doing the same and are not even remotely close to these results.
They are all talented at that level. His "talent", such as it is, would likely be only a fraction more than other international level athletes - if he is indeed superior. But the kind of improvement he has made in a year speaks of more than talent (and training) or it would not be the exception it is.
At the top level in sports the incentive is to dope; the rewards for success make it so,
The financial reward for Nordås has been miserable thus far in his career. Financial gain is not the motivation for young athletes in Norway. The general standard of living is far too high in that regard. And the bottleneck is far too narrow. In addition, there is the risk of being caught with national shame as a consequence. However, Africans and others from impoverished countries will have strong incentives to resort to doping for success. It represents the only possible opportunity to turn poverty into wealth. Hence, it is to be expected to a greater extent that individuals from more impoverished backgrounds would resort to doping compared to people from affluent countries, where more money is also invested in anti-doping efforts.
I didn't say the rewards were financial. They may be - for some - but medals and fame are enough, and have been since the beginning of the sport.
Just like you willfully ignore the fact that Nordas is an 5000/10000m runner dropping down to 1500m at the age of 22 and improved his 1500 pb by 8 seconds, and Katir was a 1500/5000m runner who at age 24 suddenly improved his 1500 pb by 8 seconds, his 3000m pb by 17 seconds, and his 5000m pb by 60 seconds.
Further, that Katir was born in Morocco, his father is Moroccan, he would have largely grown up with other Moroccan and North African immigrants, and that Morocco and his host country Spain are two of the worst for EPO scandals and doping busts, and not only in athletics.
Further, that Katir's manager also managed Cacho, and who not long ago gave an interview in which he stated that convicted dopers should be given not only a second chance, but a third, and a fourth chance (his very words).
Further, that Katir made his extraordinary progression after emerging from the lockdown in Spain, which was one of the harshest anywhere outside of China, with videos widely shown of joggers being chased and even beaten by Spanish police.
Narve Nordas did not take 7 seconds off his PR in one jump from 3.36 to 3.29 at all. Yes his PR from 2022 was 3.36 but he started this season off with a PR of 3.35.91, ran 3.34.70 in his next race and 3.32.39 in his 3rd.
Just to be clear here as comparisons with Katir are being made - there isn't really one. Katir, who had plateaued as a 3.36/37 runner having run at least 2 seasons where he ran multiple races at that exact level, then skipped down to 3.28.76 from one race to the next. Forget one season to the next - he toed the line on the 9th of July 2021 in Monaco with a 3.36.59 PR so unless my math has escaped me, that performance was a seismic 7.83 seconds improvement to a level of performance only 9 other humans have ever beaten. And yeah, it is a big deal running under 3.29 vs under 3.30 - it is another plateau.
Nordas toed the line at Bislett the other night with a 3.32.39 PR and ran 3.29.47 which is a 2.92 second improvement. This is not an outlier jump with respect to sub 3.30 runners in history at all.
Furthermore circumstantially, Covett here made absolutely relevant points.
I'm not saying Norway as a nation has never had dopers in sports - but they certainly didn't have a institutional program of doping specifically in middle distance running like Spain had (I'll refrain from using "has" as in presently).
I don't think people quite understand/remember/know this but Spain was a laughing stock in terms of performance enhancing drugs in the 90's and 2000's - all beginning with showing up for Barcelona. What the hell do you guys think Operation Puerto was? Eufemiano Fuentes? Cacho? Estevez? Redolat? Diaz? Sergio Sanchez?
The only similarity is an "end of season PR vs a PR achieved in the next" but actually that shouldn't be the benchmark at all. What we should be looking at is an athletes 10 best times over a distance and seeing if a rate of improvement is consistent within themselves and their contemporaries at a similar level of performance. If we did that here we could stop wasting our time comparing these two guys.
Sadly in the sport now all athletes who reach these levels of performance should be subject to some scrutiny -it comes with the territory. But Mohammed Katir is not even close to a comparable measuring stick in the case of Narve Nordas. Sorry.
Katir’s and Nordås’s progression is strikingly similar. But you have an agenda and therefore make up your own rules for making these two athletes un similar…!
Katir and Nordås both plateaued and then had a huge leap forward the next season. But you are stressing “the fact” that Katir pr’ed in one race (from 3.36 to 3.28), whereas Nordås did his similar progression this season through multiple steps (races). -Therefore Katir must do doping, and Nordås is innocent…
So you have to do your progression throughout the season in steps, else you are doping -what kind of logic is that? You are just making up your own rules and strange limits -again! -One example: Almgren of Sweden -he has progressed from 3.38.99 to 3.32.00 so far this season. Is he doping? Thank God, no, because he had one race in between (3.36), but had he skipped that one he would be a doper, according to your logic! Man….
But it is getting worse: Cause you have such an inherent heavenly insight that you don’t have to check out your own statistically claims and facts: Because Katir did in fact not go from 3.36 to 3.28 in one race (you repeatedly are claiming that) -f.ex he ran 3.33 (Merja may 12th 2021) 2 months before his 3.28 in July 2021. So you even mess up your own premise, proving my point: All statistics must be judged carefully and informed…
Worst: Katir must be doped because Spain allegedly had a doping problem some 20-30 years ago?! Like saying Jakob must be doing dope because around 1980 3 Norwegian throwers went to the USA on a scholarship, and then came back and were popped for anabolic steroids… Or the Norwegian cross country skier who used a contaminated lip cream, and her colleague who could be criticised for his ill interpretation of how to dose his asthma medications, or popped Finns or Austrians as proof of “Norway’s long term blood doping regime” -therefore Jakob and Narve Nordås must be blood doping… Man…
At last: Katir ran 0.7 sec faster than Nordås -this is in your eyes this tremendous gap (in improvement) therefore the first (Katir) must be doped. (Not understanding that progression is relatively to your own starting point, and not the time in itself, even though a sec around 3.30 is more worth than around 3.40, but here the two athletes are so close.) And Nordås may very well run 3.28 this season (a lot of indications) -do we have to consider him a doper then…?! I have no doubt: You have reached Armstronglivs’ and Coevett’s level of argumentation..!
The financial reward for Nordås has been miserable thus far in his career. Financial gain is not the motivation for young athletes in Norway. The general standard of living is far too high in that regard. And the bottleneck is far too narrow. In addition, there is the risk of being caught with national shame as a consequence. However, Africans and others from impoverished countries will have strong incentives to resort to doping for success. It represents the only possible opportunity to turn poverty into wealth. Hence, it is to be expected to a greater extent that individuals from more impoverished backgrounds would resort to doping compared to people from affluent countries, where more money is also invested in anti-doping efforts.
I didn't say the rewards were financial. They may be - for some - but medals and fame are enough, and have been since the beginning of the sport.
Family's opportunities to escape poverty will always outweigh honor and glory. It goes without saying. In Norway, absolutely everyone can have hopes of securing well-paid jobs, thanks to advantages such as free education. This is not the case in the United States or most other countries in the world, where sports becomes the only opportunity for many. It provides a completely different motivation compared to those who have a secure foundation and are primarily motivated by honor and glory. Hence, why it is more likely to find dopers among top athletes from disadvantaged areas, although there are, of course, those who are motivated by entirely different reasons.
"As far as I know this nice guy and his ethics I would be not only surprised but right devastated if he ever was thinking about doping."(quote)
That is the core of your argument - you would be "devastated" if he even thought about doping. The rest of your arguments are window-dressing.
Please, that was not an argument. It was more or less a personal and cultural statement. It not even the core of my argument. And you took it out of context. As usual a you make a characterization. I tried to tell the Nordås story, but did not expect anything else from you. And again as I wrote: "Do I know for sure that people who run 3:39 are not using drugs. I do not". Your problem is that you KNOW that they are. Though this Buddha here "est un autre" has made the brilliant points. So you better answer him. Go on. Do it. With arguments.
Narve Nordas did not take 7 seconds off his PR in one jump from 3.36 to 3.29 at all. Yes his PR from 2022 was 3.36 but he started this season off with a PR of 3.35.91, ran 3.34.70 in his next race and 3.32.39 in his 3rd.
Just to be clear here as comparisons with Katir are being made - there isn't really one. Katir, who had plateaued as a 3.36/37 runner having run at least 2 seasons where he ran multiple races at that exact level, then skipped down to 3.28.76 from one race to the next. Forget one season to the next - he toed the line on the 9th of July 2021 in Monaco with a 3.36.59 PR so unless my math has escaped me, that performance was a seismic 7.83 seconds improvement to a level of performance only 9 other humans have ever beaten. And yeah, it is a big deal running under 3.29 vs under 3.30 - it is another plateau.
Nordas toed the line at Bislett the other night with a 3.32.39 PR and ran 3.29.47 which is a 2.92 second improvement. This is not an outlier jump with respect to sub 3.30 runners in history at all.
Furthermore circumstantially, Covett here made absolutely relevant points.
I'm not saying Norway as a nation has never had dopers in sports - but they certainly didn't have a institutional program of doping specifically in middle distance running like Spain had (I'll refrain from using "has" as in presently).
I don't think people quite understand/remember/know this but Spain was a laughing stock in terms of performance enhancing drugs in the 90's and 2000's - all beginning with showing up for Barcelona. What the hell do you guys think Operation Puerto was? Eufemiano Fuentes? Cacho? Estevez? Redolat? Diaz? Sergio Sanchez?
The only similarity is an "end of season PR vs a PR achieved in the next" but actually that shouldn't be the benchmark at all. What we should be looking at is an athletes 10 best times over a distance and seeing if a rate of improvement is consistent within themselves and their contemporaries at a similar level of performance. If we did that here we could stop wasting our time comparing these two guys.
Sadly in the sport now all athletes who reach these levels of performance should be subject to some scrutiny -it comes with the territory. But Mohammed Katir is not even close to a comparable measuring stick in the case of Narve Nordas. Sorry.
Katir’s and Nordås’s progression is strikingly similar. But you have an agenda and therefore make up your own rules for making these two athletes un similar…!
Katir and Nordås both plateaued and then had a huge leap forward the next season. But you are stressing “the fact” that Katir pr’ed in one race (from 3.36 to 3.28), whereas Nordås did his similar progression this season through multiple steps (races). -Therefore Katir must do doping, and Nordås is innocent…
So you have to do your progression throughout the season in steps, else you are doping -what kind of logic is that? You are just making up your own rules and strange limits -again! -One example: Almgren of Sweden -he has progressed from 3.38.99 to 3.32.00 so far this season. Is he doping? Thank God, no, because he had one race in between (3.36), but had he skipped that one he would be a doper, according to your logic! Man….
But it is getting worse: Cause you have such an inherent heavenly insight that you don’t have to check out your own statistically claims and facts: Because Katir did in fact not go from 3.36 to 3.28 in one race (you repeatedly are claiming that) -f.ex he ran 3.33 (Merja may 12th 2021) 2 months before his 3.28 in July 2021. So you even mess up your own premise, proving my point: All statistics must be judged carefully and informed…
Worst: Katir must be doped because Spain allegedly had a doping problem some 20-30 years ago?! Like saying Jakob must be doing dope because around 1980 3 Norwegian throwers went to the USA on a scholarship, and then came back and were popped for anabolic steroids… Or the Norwegian cross country skier who used a contaminated lip cream, and her colleague who could be criticised for his ill interpretation of how to dose his asthma medications, or popped Finns or Austrians as proof of “Norway’s long term blood doping regime” -therefore Jakob and Narve Nordås must be blood doping… Man…
At last: Katir ran 0.7 sec faster than Nordås -this is in your eyes this tremendous gap (in improvement) therefore the first (Katir) must be doped. (Not understanding that progression is relatively to your own starting point, and not the time in itself, even though a sec around 3.30 is more worth than around 3.40, but here the two athletes are so close.) And Nordås may very well run 3.28 this season (a lot of indications) -do we have to consider him a doper then…?! I have no doubt: You have reached Armstronglivs’ and Coevett’s level of argumentation..!
Whereas you clearly aspire to rekrunner's, the resident doping apologist here.
I didn't say the rewards were financial. They may be - for some - but medals and fame are enough, and have been since the beginning of the sport.
Family's opportunities to escape poverty will always outweigh honor and glory. It goes without saying. In Norway, absolutely everyone can have hopes of securing well-paid jobs, thanks to advantages such as free education. This is not the case in the United States or most other countries in the world, where sports becomes the only opportunity for many. It provides a completely different motivation compared to those who have a secure foundation and are primarily motivated by honor and glory. Hence, why it is more likely to find dopers among top athletes from disadvantaged areas, although there are, of course, those who are motivated by entirely different reasons.
So the great champions from Nurmi onwards were not motivated as the poverty-stricken Kenyans are? We can write off Western efforts then as "not really trying".
"As far as I know this nice guy and his ethics I would be not only surprised but right devastated if he ever was thinking about doping."(quote)
That is the core of your argument - you would be "devastated" if he even thought about doping. The rest of your arguments are window-dressing.
Please, that was not an argument. It was more or less a personal and cultural statement. It not even the core of my argument. And you took it out of context. As usual a you make a characterization. I tried to tell the Nordås story, but did not expect anything else from you. And again as I wrote: "Do I know for sure that people who run 3:39 are not using drugs. I do not". Your problem is that you KNOW that they are. Though this Buddha here "est un autre" has made the brilliant points. So you better answer him. Go on. Do it. With arguments.
Your motivation speaks for itself. One who says he would be "devastated" at the mere thought this runner (a fellow Norwegian) is doping would hardly entertain arguments he is. It would be like trying to persuade a devout Christian there is in fact no God.
"Est un autre" has made no "brilliant arguments". He has simply said what suits your partiality. Even if he knows a bit about the sport he actually knows little about doping. I suspect it is because he is too young to remember what the sport was once like.
Please, that was not an argument. It was more or less a personal and cultural statement. It not even the core of my argument. And you took it out of context. As usual a you make a characterization. I tried to tell the Nordås story, but did not expect anything else from you. And again as I wrote: "Do I know for sure that people who run 3:39 are not using drugs. I do not". Your problem is that you KNOW that they are. Though this Buddha here "est un autre" has made the brilliant points. So you better answer him. Go on. Do it. With arguments.
Your motivation speaks for itself. One who says he would be "devastated" at the mere thought this runner (a fellow Norwegian) is doping would hardly entertain arguments he is. It would be like trying to persuade a devout Christian there is in fact no God.
"Est un autre" has made no "brilliant arguments". He has simply said what suits your partiality. Even if he knows a bit about the sport he actually knows little about doping. I suspect it is because he is too young to remember what the sport was once like.
No, no. The way you "argue" speaks for itself. Getting personal all the time. Do better than this. If someone argues against you it is because they "actually knows little about doping". And then you even suspect, well, that is what you are doing all the time. God? You are breaking every logical rule as though you can do it with blessings from above.
So the great champions from Nurmi onwards were not motivated as the poverty-stricken Kenyans are? We can write off Western efforts then as "not really trying".
Nurmi was born poor and left school at the age of 12 to contribute to his family. The point is that the poor own no cushion of rest. Naturally, every opportunity is seized with both hands. Legally for most, but with a greater chance of resorting to illegal means than those who grow up in affluent households.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Your motivation speaks for itself. One who says he would be "devastated" at the mere thought this runner (a fellow Norwegian) is doping would hardly entertain arguments he is. It would be like trying to persuade a devout Christian there is in fact no God.
"Est un autre" has made no "brilliant arguments". He has simply said what suits your partiality. Even if he knows a bit about the sport he actually knows little about doping. I suspect it is because he is too young to remember what the sport was once like.
No, no. The way you "argue" speaks for itself. Getting personal all the time. Do better than this. If someone argues against you it is because they "actually knows little about doping". And then you even suspect, well, that is what you are doing all the time. God? You are breaking every logical rule as though you can do it with blessings from above.
I have presented arguments over many different threads - but not at the tedious length some do here. Most are uninterested in my arguments in any case and prefer to simply to take pot-shots at me. I don't expect to persuade anyone on a running site, although some do hold views similar to mine. I say my piece - but I will target what I see are clear flaws in the arguments of others. It may sometimes seem "personal" to you but that is because they are in fact rarely expressing what I consider a cogent argument but merely their own well-honed prejudices. Their point of view is ultimately indistinguishable from their personality. Some might say that about me but that simply shows we have radically different perceptions of reality.
Narve Nordas did not take 7 seconds off his PR in one jump from 3.36 to 3.29 at all. Yes his PR from 2022 was 3.36 but he started this season off with a PR of 3.35.91, ran 3.34.70 in his next race and 3.32.39 in his 3rd.
Just to be clear here as comparisons with Katir are being made - there isn't really one. Katir, who had plateaued as a 3.36/37 runner having run at least 2 seasons where he ran multiple races at that exact level, then skipped down to 3.28.76 from one race to the next. Forget one season to the next - he toed the line on the 9th of July 2021 in Monaco with a 3.36.59 PR so unless my math has escaped me, that performance was a seismic 7.83 seconds improvement to a level of performance only 9 other humans have ever beaten. And yeah, it is a big deal running under 3.29 vs under 3.30 - it is another plateau.
Nordas toed the line at Bislett the other night with a 3.32.39 PR and ran 3.29.47 which is a 2.92 second improvement. This is not an outlier jump with respect to sub 3.30 runners in history at all.
Furthermore circumstantially, Covett here made absolutely relevant points.
I'm not saying Norway as a nation has never had dopers in sports - but they certainly didn't have a institutional program of doping specifically in middle distance running like Spain had (I'll refrain from using "has" as in presently).
I don't think people quite understand/remember/know this but Spain was a laughing stock in terms of performance enhancing drugs in the 90's and 2000's - all beginning with showing up for Barcelona. What the hell do you guys think Operation Puerto was? Eufemiano Fuentes? Cacho? Estevez? Redolat? Diaz? Sergio Sanchez?
The only similarity is an "end of season PR vs a PR achieved in the next" but actually that shouldn't be the benchmark at all. What we should be looking at is an athletes 10 best times over a distance and seeing if a rate of improvement is consistent within themselves and their contemporaries at a similar level of performance. If we did that here we could stop wasting our time comparing these two guys.
Sadly in the sport now all athletes who reach these levels of performance should be subject to some scrutiny -it comes with the territory. But Mohammed Katir is not even close to a comparable measuring stick in the case of Narve Nordas. Sorry.
Katir’s and Nordås’s progression is strikingly similar. But you have an agenda and therefore make up your own rules for making these two athletes un similar…!
Katir and Nordås both plateaued and then had a huge leap forward the next season. But you are stressing “the fact” that Katir pr’ed in one race (from 3.36 to 3.28), whereas Nordås did his similar progression this season through multiple steps (races). -Therefore Katir must do doping, and Nordås is innocent…
So you have to do your progression throughout the season in steps, else you are doping -what kind of logic is that? You are just making up your own rules and strange limits -again! -One example: Almgren of Sweden -he has progressed from 3.38.99 to 3.32.00 so far this season. Is he doping? Thank God, no, because he had one race in between (3.36), but had he skipped that one he would be a doper, according to your logic! Man….
But it is getting worse: Cause you have such an inherent heavenly insight that you don’t have to check out your own statistically claims and facts: Because Katir did in fact not go from 3.36 to 3.28 in one race (you repeatedly are claiming that) -f.ex he ran 3.33 (Merja may 12th 2021) 2 months before his 3.28 in July 2021. So you even mess up your own premise, proving my point: All statistics must be judged carefully and informed…
Worst: Katir must be doped because Spain allegedly had a doping problem some 20-30 years ago?! Like saying Jakob must be doing dope because around 1980 3 Norwegian throwers went to the USA on a scholarship, and then came back and were popped for anabolic steroids… Or the Norwegian cross country skier who used a contaminated lip cream, and her colleague who could be criticised for his ill interpretation of how to dose his asthma medications, or popped Finns or Austrians as proof of “Norway’s long term blood doping regime” -therefore Jakob and Narve Nordås must be blood doping… Man…
At last: Katir ran 0.7 sec faster than Nordås -this is in your eyes this tremendous gap (in improvement) therefore the first (Katir) must be doped. (Not understanding that progression is relatively to your own starting point, and not the time in itself, even though a sec around 3.30 is more worth than around 3.40, but here the two athletes are so close.) And Nordås may very well run 3.28 this season (a lot of indications) -do we have to consider him a doper then…?! I have no doubt: You have reached Armstronglivs’ and Coevett’s level of argumentation..!
katir dropped 8 seconds in one year. the year before he ran 3:28, he ran in five different 1500s between july and september. He gave it an honest shot. 3:36 mid was the best he could do. He also lost some races at slower speeds. The year before he ran several 1500s. It seemed to be his chosen distance. 3:37 max.
Nordas ran the 1500 twice last year. both wins. we likely didn't see the best he was capable of as he was more focused on being a mediocre 3000/5000 runner.
Nurmi was born poor and left school at the age of 12 to contribute to his family. The point is that the poor own no cushion of rest. Naturally, every opportunity is seized with both hands. Legally for most, but with a greater chance of resorting to illegal means than those who grow up in affluent households.
Nurmi was not a professional. He competed in an amateur era, when you couldn't make a living from running. He was still one of the most dedicated athletes in the history of the sport - as were so many of the great amateur champions who followed him.
Just like you willfully ignore the fact that Nordas is an 5000/10000m runner dropping down to 1500m at the age of 22 and improved his 1500 pb by 8 seconds, and Katir was a 1500/5000m runner who at age 24 suddenly improved his 1500 pb by 8 seconds, his 3000m pb by 17 seconds, and his 5000m pb by 60 seconds.
Further, that Katir was born in Morocco, his father is Moroccan, he would have largely grown up with other Moroccan and North African immigrants, and that Morocco and his host country Spain are two of the worst for EPO scandals and doping busts, and not only in athletics.
Further, that Katir's manager also managed Cacho, and who not long ago gave an interview in which he stated that convicted dopers should be given not only a second chance, but a third, and a fourth chance (his very words).
Further, that Katir made his extraordinary progression after emerging from the lockdown in Spain, which was one of the harshest anywhere outside of China, with videos widely shown of joggers being chased and even beaten by Spanish police.
Narve Nordas did not take 7 seconds off his PR in one jump from 3.36 to 3.29 at all. Yes his PR from 2022 was 3.36 but he started this season off with a PR of 3.35.91, ran 3.34.70 in his next race and 3.32.39 in his 3rd.
Just to be clear here as comparisons with Katir are being made - there isn't really one. Katir, who had plateaued as a 3.36/37 runner having run at least 2 seasons where he ran multiple races at that exact level, then skipped down to 3.28.76 from one race to the next. Forget one season to the next - he toed the line on the 9th of July 2021 in Monaco with a 3.36.59 PR so unless my math has escaped me, that performance was a seismic 7.83 seconds improvement to a level of performance only 9 other humans have ever beaten. And yeah, it is a big deal running under 3.29 vs under 3.30 - it is another plateau.
Nordas toed the line at Bislett the other night with a 3.32.39 PR and ran 3.29.47 which is a 2.92 second improvement. This is not an outlier jump with respect to sub 3.30 runners in history at all.
Katir age 21 3:37.20 - 7:53.81(i) age 22 3:36.59 - 7:44.13 age 23 3:28.76 - 7:27.64 - 12:50.79 age 24 3:29.90 - 7:35.73(i) - 13:22.98 age 25 3:28.89 - 7:24.68(i) - 12:52.09
Nordas age 21 3:39.15 - 7:50.57 - 13:33.39 age 22 7:41.31 - 13:16.67 - 28:47.19 age 23 3:36.23 - 7:43.53 - 13:15.82 - 28:04.42 age 24 3:29.47 - 7:43.94
Katir did not run 3:28.76 while having a PB of 3:36.59, he has run 3:33.62 two months before. Katir's improvement which he has had at age 23 was enormous and to me this looks suspicious in some way. But Nordas' improvement at age 24 also was enormous and to me this also looks suspicious. Seeing Katir as a almost 100% doper and looking for any reason why Nordas' improvement makes 100% sense just shows your dishonesty (and for sure Coevett's - but he is known as a constant liar and mentally ill person on this board since years).
Is Nordas' improvement due to doping? Maybe, we don't know. (if it is, what would this tell us about the Ingebrigtsens?) Is Katir's improvement due to doping? Maybe, we don't know.
Katir’s and Nordås’s progression is strikingly similar. But you have an agenda and therefore make up your own rules for making these two athletes un similar…!
Katir and Nordås both plateaued and then had a huge leap forward the next season. But you are stressing “the fact” that Katir pr’ed in one race (from 3.36 to 3.28), whereas Nordås did his similar progression this season through multiple steps (races). -Therefore Katir must do doping, and Nordås is innocent…
So you have to do your progression throughout the season in steps, else you are doping -what kind of logic is that? You are just making up your own rules and strange limits -again! -One example: Almgren of Sweden -he has progressed from 3.38.99 to 3.32.00 so far this season. Is he doping? Thank God, no, because he had one race in between (3.36), but had he skipped that one he would be a doper, according to your logic! Man….
But it is getting worse: Cause you have such an inherent heavenly insight that you don’t have to check out your own statistically claims and facts: Because Katir did in fact not go from 3.36 to 3.28 in one race (you repeatedly are claiming that) -f.ex he ran 3.33 (Merja may 12th 2021) 2 months before his 3.28 in July 2021. So you even mess up your own premise, proving my point: All statistics must be judged carefully and informed…
Worst: Katir must be doped because Spain allegedly had a doping problem some 20-30 years ago?! Like saying Jakob must be doing dope because around 1980 3 Norwegian throwers went to the USA on a scholarship, and then came back and were popped for anabolic steroids… Or the Norwegian cross country skier who used a contaminated lip cream, and her colleague who could be criticised for his ill interpretation of how to dose his asthma medications, or popped Finns or Austrians as proof of “Norway’s long term blood doping regime” -therefore Jakob and Narve Nordås must be blood doping… Man…
At last: Katir ran 0.7 sec faster than Nordås -this is in your eyes this tremendous gap (in improvement) therefore the first (Katir) must be doped. (Not understanding that progression is relatively to your own starting point, and not the time in itself, even though a sec around 3.30 is more worth than around 3.40, but here the two athletes are so close.) And Nordås may very well run 3.28 this season (a lot of indications) -do we have to consider him a doper then…?! I have no doubt: You have reached Armstronglivs’ and Coevett’s level of argumentation..!
katir dropped 8 seconds in one year. the year before he ran 3:28, he ran in five different 1500s between july and september. He gave it an honest shot. 3:36 mid was the best he could do. He also lost some races at slower speeds. The year before he ran several 1500s. It seemed to be his chosen distance. 3:37 max.
Nordas ran the 1500 twice last year. both wins. we likely didn't see the best he was capable of as he was more focused on being a mediocre 3000/5000 runner.
it is not the same.
He was "focused on being a mediocre 3k/5k runner"? How do you say that with a straight face? An elite runner approaching his mid twenties prefers to "focus" - with all that that word means - on being mediocre rather than excelling. Give me a break.
He is in fact very like Katir. They both have made huge - outlier - improvements to a similar top level in a short period of time. The usual red flag.
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Is it anyone (other than the very few usual suspects) that actually enjoys these discussions? One person saying "I think he is doping" the other one saying "I don't think he is doping", then there is these comparisons of times etc, which are extremely pointless for a number of reasons: No athletes are sanctioned for doping on a basis of their progress. No conclusion can be made, it is like sitting in your cellar and discussing whether the sky is cloudy or not. Has he been found guilty in doping? That is all we know for certain. No one gets any wiser following this discussion, rather the opposite - it takes the focus away from productive interesting discussions.
I wish the mods would strike harder, as its the same over and over again. It must be the 1000th time exactly the same discussion is had, and it f*cking sucks. I'm not a member of this forum to be enlightened about who Armstronglivs thinks are a doper or not, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I am tired of reading his opinion in every thread in here. I want to discuss athletics, running, race results, runners. Baselass speculations is nowhere to be found on that list. Have an athlete given a positive sample or have a whereabouts violation? Great, lets discuss it! Other than that, please, spare us.
katir dropped 8 seconds in one year. the year before he ran 3:28, he ran in five different 1500s between july and september. He gave it an honest shot. 3:36 mid was the best he could do. He also lost some races at slower speeds. The year before he ran several 1500s. It seemed to be his chosen distance. 3:37 max.
Nordas ran the 1500 twice last year. both wins. we likely didn't see the best he was capable of as he was more focused on being a mediocre 3000/5000 runner.
it is not the same.
He was "focused on being a mediocre 3k/5k runner"? How do you say that with a straight face? An elite runner approaching his mid twenties prefers to "focus" - with all that that word means - on being mediocre rather than excelling. Give me a break.
He is in fact very like Katir. They both have made huge - outlier - improvements to a similar top level in a short period of time. The usual red flag.
i would say his coach probably steered his focus from early on. Jakob was best at 1500, so lets see if these other guys can do well at longer distances, rather than try to compete with the alpha of the group.
so no, he didn't choose to focus on something he knew he was less suited to. He didn't know. It's the path that was chosen early on.
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No, no. The way you "argue" speaks for itself. Getting personal all the time. Do better than this. If someone argues against you it is because they "actually knows little about doping". And then you even suspect, well, that is what you are doing all the time. God? You are breaking every logical rule as though you can do it with blessings from above.
I have presented arguments over many different threads -
You havn't. Again and again you just wrote: too fast, doper.
When just asked which times are not "too fast", you ran away.
