Really, your problem is that your arguments and those like them aren't accepted. Those that are disregarded are irrelevant.
You ignore arguments, you ignore facts, you change the subject if necessary to maintain your point, you call others by bad names - again and again.
Nordas' improved enormously as did Katir two or three years back. Suspicious? For me: yes.
Do we know they are doping? No. And "we" includes you.
Just like you willfully ignore the fact that Nordas is an 5000/10000m runner dropping down to 1500m at the age of 22 and improved his 1500 pb by 8 seconds, and Katir was a 1500/5000m runner who at age 24 suddenly improved his 1500 pb by 8 seconds, his 3000m pb by 17 seconds, and his 5000m pb by 60 seconds.
Further, that Katir was born in Morocco, his father is Moroccan, he would have largely grown up with other Moroccan and North African immigrants, and that Morocco and his host country Spain are two of the worst for EPO scandals and doping busts, and not only in athletics.
Further, that Katir's manager also managed Cacho, and who not long ago gave an interview in which he stated that convicted dopers should be given not only a second chance, but a third, and a fourth chance (his very words).
Further, that Katir made his extraordinary progression after emerging from the lockdown in Spain, which was one of the harshest anywhere outside of China, with videos widely shown of joggers being chased and even beaten by Spanish police.
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You have also used ad hominem fallacies. A false analogy fallacy is the use of analogies to support a conclusion in a logical argument. I do not have to show it is wrong. It is the use of the analogy as such. Do you have courses in logic where you come from?
I have said your pretensions to philosophy are just that. You are a Norwegian bag of wind.
And now you are going to be Niels Laros' Judge? Last year 3:39.46. To day 3.32.89. Approx. 6,5 seconds. And it can even be faster this year. And perhaps under 3:30 next year, that's where you draw the line in the sand: Not possible for human beings to run under without doping. Right, you wrote that, right? Not 3:29 or 3:29.5 or 3:30.5. But perhaps the wind blows your words away?
Some pros get a lot better right out of college while others only slightly better, and some get a lot better over time. These men are early-mid 20s and their development can't be predicted so easily.
It's no surprise a guy who was in 3:34ish shape but had to focus on studies suddenly dropped to 3:29 with better coaching and 100% focus on running.
You are simply assuming from his results that he has done that. No one runs 3.34 or even 3.36 who is not already immensely dedicated. These are not the elite equivalent of "hobby-jogger" performances. Also, 24 is already a physically mature athlete, unlike an athlete in their teens. A 7-second improvement in only one year to become one of the fastest in the world at 3.29 is only possible through doping.
You obviously don't know anything about Narve's history. It is a known fact that Narve has for a long time had the capacity to run faster than what he has achieved in races. Gjert has been saying this for years.
Narve has now had a long training period without injuries. He has focused on a distance he is better suited for than the long distances.
To you and many others, it seems that PEDs are the only answer to how to get faster. The key is to train twice every day for 10 years or more, using the Norwegian method, not American, and stay healthy and avoid injuries.
You ignore arguments, you ignore facts, you change the subject if necessary to maintain your point, you call others by bad names - again and again.
Nordas' improved enormously as did Katir two or three years back. Suspicious? For me: yes.
Do we know they are doping? No. And "we" includes you.
Just like you willfully ignore the fact that Nordas is an 5000/10000m runner dropping down to 1500m at the age of 22 and improved his 1500 pb by 8 seconds, and Katir was a 1500/5000m runner who at age 24 suddenly improved his 1500 pb by 8 seconds, his 3000m pb by 17 seconds, and his 5000m pb by 60 seconds.
Further, that Katir was born in Morocco, his father is Moroccan, he would have largely grown up with other Moroccan and North African immigrants, and that Morocco and his host country Spain are two of the worst for EPO scandals and doping busts, and not only in athletics.
Further, that Katir's manager also managed Cacho, and who not long ago gave an interview in which he stated that convicted dopers should be given not only a second chance, but a third, and a fourth chance (his very words).
Further, that Katir made his extraordinary progression after emerging from the lockdown in Spain, which was one of the harshest anywhere outside of China, with videos widely shown of joggers being chased and even beaten by Spanish police.
He is 24, as was told you before, liar.
Nordas' improvement at age 24 is as extreme as Katir's improvement at age 23.
You are simply assuming from his results that he has done that. No one runs 3.34 or even 3.36 who is not already immensely dedicated. These are not the elite equivalent of "hobby-jogger" performances. Also, 24 is already a physically mature athlete, unlike an athlete in their teens. A 7-second improvement in only one year to become one of the fastest in the world at 3.29 is only possible through doping.
You obviously don't know anything about Narve's history. It is a known fact that Narve has for a long time had the capacity to run faster than what he has achieved in races. Gjert has been saying this for years.
Narve has now had a long training period without injuries. He has focused on a distance he is better suited for than the long distances.
To you and many others, it seems that PEDs are the only answer to how to get faster. The key is to train twice every day for 10 years or more, using the Norwegian method, not American, and stay healthy and avoid injuries.
Sigh. The are none so blind as those who will not see. He's Norwegian - he must be clean! - even though his off-the-charts progression follows the path of every other doper in the sport.
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Just like you willfully ignore the fact that Nordas is an 5000/10000m runner dropping down to 1500m at the age of 22 and improved his 1500 pb by 8 seconds, and Katir was a 1500/5000m runner who at age 24 suddenly improved his 1500 pb by 8 seconds, his 3000m pb by 17 seconds, and his 5000m pb by 60 seconds.
Further, that Katir was born in Morocco, his father is Moroccan, he would have largely grown up with other Moroccan and North African immigrants, and that Morocco and his host country Spain are two of the worst for EPO scandals and doping busts, and not only in athletics.
Further, that Katir's manager also managed Cacho, and who not long ago gave an interview in which he stated that convicted dopers should be given not only a second chance, but a third, and a fourth chance (his very words).
Further, that Katir made his extraordinary progression after emerging from the lockdown in Spain, which was one of the harshest anywhere outside of China, with videos widely shown of joggers being chased and even beaten by Spanish police.
He is 24, as was told you before, liar.
Nordas' improvement at age 24 is as extreme as Katir's improvement at age 23.
Suspicious? For me: yes.
Is he doping? We don't know. Same for Katir.
In a sport that has doped for decades the outliers today with the most spectacular progressions are its poster boys.
I have said your pretensions to philosophy are just that. You are a Norwegian bag of wind.
And now you are going to be Niels Laros' Judge? Last year 3:39.46. To day 3.32.89. Approx. 6,5 seconds. And it can even be faster this year. And perhaps under 3:30 next year, that's where you draw the line in the sand: Not possible for human beings to run under without doping. Right, you wrote that, right? Not 3:29 or 3:29.5 or 3:30.5. But perhaps the wind blows your words away?
I said I think 3.30 is likely the clean limit - but it may be a little under or over. But what I do know is that 7 seconds carved off in a year by a mature athlete to run 3.29 shouts doping. I don't need to bandy around "epistemology", "syllogisms" and "logical fallacies" to see what stares us in the face.
And now you are going to be Niels Laros' Judge? Last year 3:39.46. To day 3.32.89. Approx. 6,5 seconds. And it can even be faster this year. And perhaps under 3:30 next year, that's where you draw the line in the sand: Not possible for human beings to run under without doping. Right, you wrote that, right? Not 3:29 or 3:29.5 or 3:30.5. But perhaps the wind blows your words away?
I said I think 3.30 is likely the clean limit - but it may be a little under or over. But what I do know is that 7 seconds carved off in a year by a mature athlete to run 3.29 shouts doping. I don't need to bandy around "epistemology", "syllogisms" and "logical fallacies" to see what stares us in the face.
I agree; to school you in logic is an hopeless undertaking. And you have a ocular point of view: "to see what stares us in the face". In Narves case, as pointed out earlier, he was fully capable of running faster, but stagnated for a couple of years. But you do'nt need empirical knowledge, do you? Even if you distates logic you go on with your abstract reasoning. You just write: What I do know. And since you are convinced ... BTW, why have'nt you answered est un autre? After all he argued lengthy against you. Sober, do'nt you think. Epistemology or not.
And now you are going to be Niels Laros' Judge? Last year 3:39.46. To day 3.32.89. Approx. 6,5 seconds. And it can even be faster this year. And perhaps under 3:30 next year, that's where you draw the line in the sand: Not possible for human beings to run under without doping. Right, you wrote that, right? Not 3:29 or 3:29.5 or 3:30.5. But perhaps the wind blows your words away?
I said I think 3.30 is likely the clean limit - but it may be a little under or over. But what I do know is that 7 seconds carved off in a year by a mature athlete to run 3.29 shouts doping. I don't need to bandy around "epistemology", "syllogisms" and "logical fallacies" to see what stares us in the face.
Interesting -do you mean 3.30 +- with or without new shoes / pacing lights / better tracks? And who do you regard as the clean WR holder?
I said I think 3.30 is likely the clean limit - but it may be a little under or over. But what I do know is that 7 seconds carved off in a year by a mature athlete to run 3.29 shouts doping. I don't need to bandy around "epistemology", "syllogisms" and "logical fallacies" to see what stares us in the face.
I agree; to school you in logic is an hopeless undertaking. And you have a ocular point of view: "to see what stares us in the face". In Narves case, as pointed out earlier, he was fully capable of running faster, but stagnated for a couple of years. But you do'nt need empirical knowledge, do you? Even if you distates logic you go on with your abstract reasoning. You just write: What I do know. And since you are convinced ... BTW, why have'nt you answered est un autre? After all he argued lengthy against you. Sober, do'nt you think. Epistemology or not.
There was nothing indicating that Nordas had a lifetime potential of 3:29, let alone after one year in the distance. No young category world class performances, no world class performances in others event close to the 1500.
Given the history of the sport and more generally the way it works in our era, all the 3:29 guys are already suspicious even when their progression makes sens. So even more in Nordas case such a big jump at 25yo, while he was a 3:49 14:08 guy when 21. It cannot be more suspicious than that.
A change in the training, the lifestyle, the event focus or anything else is just not enough to justify it. Maybe it could have been after 3-4 years, but one year...
While none of this is a proof, you cannot take this indignated position when somebody raises doubts.
I said I think 3.30 is likely the clean limit - but it may be a little under or over. But what I do know is that 7 seconds carved off in a year by a mature athlete to run 3.29 shouts doping. I don't need to bandy around "epistemology", "syllogisms" and "logical fallacies" to see what stares us in the face.
I agree; to school you in logic is an hopeless undertaking. And you have a ocular point of view: "to see what stares us in the face". In Narves case, as pointed out earlier, he was fully capable of running faster, but stagnated for a couple of years. But you do'nt need empirical knowledge, do you? Even if you distates logic you go on with your abstract reasoning. You just write: What I do know. And since you are convinced ... BTW, why have'nt you answered est un autre? After all he argued lengthy against you. Sober, do'nt you think. Epistemology or not.
Thank you for the nice words! But I haven’t even (really) started my criticism of Armstronglivs’s illogically doping claims…Yet!
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I agree; to school you in logic is an hopeless undertaking. And you have a ocular point of view: "to see what stares us in the face". In Narves case, as pointed out earlier, he was fully capable of running faster, but stagnated for a couple of years. But you do'nt need empirical knowledge, do you? Even if you distates logic you go on with your abstract reasoning. You just write: What I do know. And since you are convinced ... BTW, why have'nt you answered est un autre? After all he argued lengthy against you. Sober, do'nt you think. Epistemology or not.
There was nothing indicating that Nordas had a lifetime potential of 3:29, let alone after one year in the distance. No young category world class performances, no world class performances in others event close to the 1500.
Given the history of the sport and more generally the way it works in our era, all the 3:29 guys are already suspicious even when their progression makes sens. So even more in Nordas case such a big jump at 25yo, while he was a 3:49 14:08 guy when 21. It cannot be more suspicious than that.
A change in the training, the lifestyle, the event focus or anything else is just not enough to justify it. Maybe it could have been after 3-4 years, but one year...
While none of this is a proof, you cannot take this indignated position when somebody raises doubts.
^ This guy is Kenyan - he knows what he is talking about when it comes to doping.
I agree; to school you in logic is an hopeless undertaking. And you have a ocular point of view: "to see what stares us in the face". In Narves case, as pointed out earlier, he was fully capable of running faster, but stagnated for a couple of years. But you do'nt need empirical knowledge, do you? Even if you distates logic you go on with your abstract reasoning. You just write: What I do know. And since you are convinced ... BTW, why have'nt you answered est un autre? After all he argued lengthy against you. Sober, do'nt you think. Epistemology or not.
There was nothing indicating that Nordas had a lifetime potential of 3:29, let alone after one year in the distance. No young category world class performances, no world class performances in others event close to the 1500.
Given the history of the sport and more generally the way it works in our era, all the 3:29 guys are already suspicious even when their progression makes sens. So even more in Nordas case such a big jump at 25yo, while he was a 3:49 14:08 guy when 21. It cannot be more suspicious than that.
A change in the training, the lifestyle, the event focus or anything else is just not enough to justify it. Maybe it could have been after 3-4 years, but one year...
While none of this is a proof, you cannot take this indignated position when somebody raises doubts.
I do agree in everything you write here.. And nevertheless I think Nordås is clean. And that shows us some of my main points: You cannot judge progression alone -well, frankly meaning not at all! And I really appreciate Nordås being from Norway (maybe the best testing regime there is) -removing the unfair suspicions that so many (from other countries) have had to live under (due to “irregular” progression or other statistically nonsense)…
Listen people, Nordås got dragged to a super quick time. He's probably not gonna run 3:29 in any non-DL race. Neither will most of the lads around him or ahead of him. Freaky fast times do get registered by people who can deliver on the day a race hots up -- like this one did with 12 guys sub-2:50 at the 1200m.
Impala31 wroteThere was nothing indicating that Nordas had a lifetime potential of 3:29, let alone after one year in the distance. No young category world class performances, no world class performances in others event close to the 1500.
Given the history of the sport and more generally the way it works in our era, all the 3:29 guys are already suspicious even when their progression makes sens. So even more in Nordas case such a big jump at 25yo, while he was a 3:49 14:08 guy when 21. It cannot be more suspicious than that.
A change in the training, the lifestyle, the event focus or anything else is just not enough to justify it. Maybe it could have been after 3-4 years, but one year...
While none of this is a proof, you cannot take this indignated position when somebody raises doubts.
Well, this was after discussions, also on other threads, with Armstronglives. If he raised doubts, then I would have answered in another way. Sure, it is quite legitimate to raise doubts and then argue. When Narve ran the last 1000 at 2:22.56 at the European indoor early in 2021, I personally thought he had a great potensial which I told him. Comparing hin with MsSweyn. He was 22 then and 24 now.
Yes, he ran a 3:49 at 20 . 10 K at 28:51 and a half marathon at 1:04.57. He was in for the long distances. Then he went "down" and concentrated on 5000. Stagnated 13:16 in 2021 and 13:15 last year. Though in 2020 he ran 3.39.15, 3 years ago. Did not compete at 1500 in 2021. Still last year 3.36.23. And then total concentration on 1500. Yesterday he wrote a nice mail to me: "It was my opinion that you have been overly optimistic at times, but in the end you were right". As far as I know this nice guy and his ethics I would be not only surprised but right devastated if he ever was thinking about doping. When it came to potential sponsors he showed the same ethics. And believe me (or not) he have had a hard time, money, working and studying. But last year he could be a pro. I know that this might leave no impression, especially when people just reason abstractly like you and some others do. Do I know for sure that people who run 3:29 is not using PEDs? No, I do not.
Listen people, Nordås got dragged to a super quick time. He's probably not gonna run 3:29 in any non-DL race. Neither will most of the lads around him or ahead of him. Freaky fast times do get registered by people who can deliver on the day a race hots up -- like this one did with 12 guys sub-2:50 at the 1200m.
And he could even have done better. He was too careful. He was going for 3:31.46. The first 500 3:33.9 pace, the next 3:30.6-pace, and the last 500 3.24.0-pace. Now he knows his potential.
