Give me a break. This was ALSO a guilty by association. The implications of his statement is obvious. Because first you have to prove that what you write is right. So by all means a false analogy fallacy.
You are trying to argue with Armstronglivs and Coevett. Maybe you are relatively new in this forum: it's impossibloe to have a serious discussion with those guys. They ignore arguments if those arguments don't fit their points. There are dozens and dozens of examples for this.
Far, far, away. So Gjert suddenly started doping him? Last year, and none of the years before? Narve stagnated. He thought that he would get close to 13:00 on 5000. In early 2021 Narve became 5th in EChamp indoors with a great last 1000, a bit over 2.22. Everybody thought, here is the guy. But he did not improve very much. He was studying and lacked sponsors.
13.16 on 5000 in 21. 13.15 in 22. He was on the verge of giving it all up. He ran a 3.36.23 1500, though last year he thought that 3.33-3.34 was within his reach, ran a 3.56-mile in 2020. After the break with his sons Gjert really could consentrate on Narve. And Narve, last year, got the sponsors he needed and was able with full dedication to do specific 1500-training. Never did that before. And with his work ethics; he is raised in an area where the protestant mind still is highly appriciated, he became much better in training; fall 22 and winter 23. It is impossible to defend oneself when the doping accusations, however abstract they are - just write 7 seconds down in one season then one must be on drugs. And then the accusations will accelerate, because this was not an opitmal race from him. He will get better. He started with 57.7 at the first 400, 2 sec behind Jakob, but finished with the last 500 sub 1.08.
Well-put. You seem to know Narve's history well.
People underestimate the immense value of focusing 100% on running.
Come on Coevett -you are a little too clever here. Because a lot of what you mention in this post is correct (minus for saying Narve literally was a 5000/10000m runner until this season: His 2022 pb in the 1500m is better than his 10000m, and his best international race was in a 3000m). But all this listing of facts doesn’t hide that the similarities with Katir are striking…!
You do often dear fronting somewhat unpopular opinions, and that’s a kind of honesty. Why not here too - admit that the only reason you call Katir a doper is that he is from Spain, and with a Moroccan background, and that you are clean washing Nordås as a Norwegian..! Then we can have an honest argument from there…
It doesn't matter that his 1500m pb was better than his 5000m pb last season. Maybe that's why he decided to move down from the 5000m? This thread is accusing him of doping because he didn't run fast enough for you last season (in two races in which he won easily), and now you're saying he's doping because he ran too fast last season.
There are MULTIPLE red flags for Katir, which I've gone through again and again (and some of the threads deleted by the mods). The fact that Garcia is running at Katir levels and has the same coach is yet another red flag.
OK -fair enough. But you misunderstood -I’m not applying that Nordås is doping. Not at all!
Give me a break. This was ALSO a guilty by association. The implications of his statement is obvious. Because first you have to prove that what you write is right. So by all means a false analogy fallacy.
I didn't write it. But you have to show it is wrong for it to be a false analogy. You haven't. There have been grounds argued here that show doping could be systemic in Norwegian sport. That would support the analogy.
It doesn't matter that his 1500m pb was better than his 5000m pb last season. Maybe that's why he decided to move down from the 5000m? This thread is accusing him of doping because he didn't run fast enough for you last season (in two races in which he won easily), and now you're saying he's doping because he ran too fast last season.
There are MULTIPLE red flags for Katir, which I've gone through again and again (and some of the threads deleted by the mods). The fact that Garcia is running at Katir levels and has the same coach is yet another red flag.
I’m European and Katir has ZERO red flags for me. He’s been excellent as a junior now a senior.
Well, my point was that nor do I see any red flags in Katir’s progression…!
Give me a break. This was ALSO a guilty by association. The implications of his statement is obvious. Because first you have to prove that what you write is right. So by all means a false analogy fallacy.
You are trying to argue with Armstronglivs and Coevett. Maybe you are relatively new in this forum: it's impossibloe to have a serious discussion with those guys. They ignore arguments if those arguments don't fit their points. There are dozens and dozens of examples for this.
Really, your problem is that your arguments and those like them aren't accepted. Those that are disregarded are irrelevant.
Far, far, away. So Gjert suddenly started doping him? Last year, and none of the years before? Narve stagnated. He thought that he would get close to 13:00 on 5000. In early 2021 Narve became 5th in EChamp indoors with a great last 1000, a bit over 2.22. Everybody thought, here is the guy. But he did not improve very much. He was studying and lacked sponsors.
13.16 on 5000 in 21. 13.15 in 22. He was on the verge of giving it all up. He ran a 3.36.23 1500, though last year he thought that 3.33-3.34 was within his reach, ran a 3.56-mile in 2020. After the break with his sons Gjert really could consentrate on Narve. And Narve, last year, got the sponsors he needed and was able with full dedication to do specific 1500-training. Never did that before. And with his work ethics; he is raised in an area where the protestant mind still is highly appriciated, he became much better in training; fall 22 and winter 23. It is impossible to defend oneself when the doping accusations, however abstract they are - just write 7 seconds down in one season then one must be on drugs. And then the accusations will accelerate, because this was not an opitmal race from him. He will get better. He started with 57.7 at the first 400, 2 sec behind Jakob, but finished with the last 500 sub 1.08.
Well-put. You seem to know Narve's history well.
People underestimate the immense value of focusing 100% on running.
And elites and pro's around the world aren't doing that? I guess not. They aren't making performance jumps like Narve has.
I find these threads almost comical. It's easy to dope and get away with it and doping is throughout the sport. But when there are examples of spectacular progress that are hard to explain it's never the obvious.
Give me a break. This was ALSO a guilty by association. The implications of his statement is obvious. Because first you have to prove that what you write is right. So by all means a false analogy fallacy.
I didn't write it. But you have to show it is wrong for it to be a false analogy. You haven't. There have been grounds argued here that show doping could be systemic in Norwegian sport. That would support the analogy.
You have also used ad hominem fallacies. A false analogy fallacy is the use of analogies to support a conclusion in a logical argument. I do not have to show it is wrong. It is the use of the analogy as such. Do you have courses in logic where you come from?
Steve Cram did a short interview where he suggested that two Norwegians could be "up there" in the race. I don't know what made him think that but he obviously thought that the guy could maybe be competitive in a sub 3:30 race.
People underestimate the immense value of focusing 100% on running.
And elites and pro's around the world aren't doing that? I guess not. They aren't making performance jumps like Narve has.
Some pros get a lot better right out of college while others only slightly better, and some get a lot better over time. These men are early-mid 20s and their development can't be predicted so easily.
It's no surprise a guy who was in 3:34ish shape but had to focus on studies suddenly dropped to 3:29 with better coaching and 100% focus on running.
if katir is doping so is nordas.thats how it works.i dont believe one of them is more talented than the other,just because they come from different countries.
I didn't write it. But you have to show it is wrong for it to be a false analogy. You haven't. There have been grounds argued here that show doping could be systemic in Norwegian sport. That would support the analogy.
You have also used ad hominem fallacies. A false analogy fallacy is the use of analogies to support a conclusion in a logical argument. I do not have to show it is wrong. It is the use of the analogy as such. Do you have courses in logic where you come from?
I have said your pretensions to philosophy are just that. You are a Norwegian bag of wind.
And elites and pro's around the world aren't doing that? I guess not. They aren't making performance jumps like Narve has.
Some pros get a lot better right out of college while others only slightly better, and some get a lot better over time. These men are early-mid 20s and their development can't be predicted so easily.
It's no surprise a guy who was in 3:34ish shape but had to focus on studies suddenly dropped to 3:29 with better coaching and 100% focus on running.
You are simply assuming from his results that he has done that. No one runs 3.34 or even 3.36 who is not already immensely dedicated. These are not the elite equivalent of "hobby-jogger" performances. Also, 24 is already a physically mature athlete, unlike an athlete in their teens. A 7-second improvement in only one year to become one of the fastest in the world at 3.29 is only possible through doping.
Well, my point was that nor do I see any red flags in Katir’s progression…!
You don't see what you can't or don't want to.
Well I have thought about just that even before you wrote it. -Of course you could be right, cause we don’t always know why we mean what we mean….
As a Norwegian I have never wanted Katir to beat Ingebrigtsen (he has done that once). And since I don’t know the guy (Katir) it would be strategically better for me if he was pooped -one fierce contender less for my man Ingebrigtsen. But I just don’t see any doping signs in Katir… Nor in Komen, El Guerrouj, Cheruiyot, Bekele, Gebrselassie, Kipchoge, Ingebrigtsen, Coe, Ovett, Cram and so on… Am I knowledgeable enough to be sure? No! But I have seen far too little evidence or indications -being a supreme athlete from a “wrong” country in a “wrong” time period just isn’t good enough! Even in the Houlihan case and regarding Kiprop I have some unanswered questions. But I think 99% of all positive doping tests are real, and that there’s a lot of athletes under the radar…
Can one of the mentioned all time greats be “dirty”? Sure! A few, everybody? Sure. Could everybody be clean? Sure! We just don’t know…
There are two main ways to form an opinion: 1. Testing / investigation. 2. Fairly analysing indications (pros and cons) for doping or non doping. But the latter (point 2) is a difficult one; in most cases we simply have to conclude “don’t know at all” because of lack of exact individual information. But that doesn’t mean we can’t say something overall: The many doping cases in Kenya for instance surely say something about undetected doping in this country. But it doesn’t say anything about Komen, Cheruiyot or Kipchoge!
I don’t have a problem with people talking about the full throttle potential epo use in the 1990/2000s, nor generalised views like this: “Many of the best were on full throttle epo before the testing came”.: That is a statement vague enough to be somewhat true or probably. But when people speculate in names (without any evidence or detailed indications) you loose me -it’s utterly unfair! So I prefer then to go the other way (if there’s no evidence / real indications at all): To find reasons why it’s not probably that the named athletes did dope (but always adding: we just don’t know!) And i prefer to never connect doping to a person based on merit, time period or country…
I could pick athletes (as doping suspects) on statistically measurements, f.ex progression, country, training groups, and so on, but that is too crude. And it’s somewhat sad that I have to say all this because in our courts this is elementary: We don’t judge people on colour/ family background, statistics or some gut feeling we might or might not have! And the reason is among other things this: Though sometimes higher probability for guilt (statistically) people will all the time be totally wrongly and innocent judged -probability is this unjust measurement. One have to investigate further, or just leave it be.
This post was edited 4 minutes after it was posted.
You are trying to argue with Armstronglivs and Coevett. Maybe you are relatively new in this forum: it's impossibloe to have a serious discussion with those guys. They ignore arguments if those arguments don't fit their points. There are dozens and dozens of examples for this.
Really, your problem is that your arguments and those like them aren't accepted. Those that are disregarded are irrelevant.
You ignore arguments, you ignore facts, you change the subject if necessary to maintain your point, you call others by bad names - again and again.
Nordas' improved enormously as did Katir two or three years back. Suspicious? For me: yes.
Do we know they are doping? No. And "we" includes you.
its "i couldn't care less", you big dumb idiot. What, did you just blow in from stupid town? Whatre you gonna say next "with all intensive purposes" or "take it for granite".
If you're going to correct someone at least get it right, or do you think that you are the authority over Merriam-Webster?
