Did Mike Rossi (viral marathon dad) cheat his way into Boston?

Not likely....this whole Mike Rossi debate has brought more attention to this course as being an easy BQ , just from Yasso's statements and others as it being fairly level , and flat , and considered fast . Attendance would increase not decrease

I suggest we put to rest the discussion of the standard of proof needed to DQ Rossi, who has the burden of proof, and whether the RD can DQ Rossi based on circumstantial, rather than direct, evidence.

1. Standard of Review - The RD can disqualify a runner based on his/her discretion. This is a very low hurdle. The RD has wide latitude here. The RD's decision cannot be successfully challenged unless the RD acted in an arbitrary or unreasonable way that results in unfairly denying Rossi an important right or causes him an unjust result. The missing photos alone are sufficient to support a DQ. The lack of a GPS file and the fact that his 3:11 time would have required back-to-back-to-back-to-back 10K PR's (and back-to-back 1/2 marathon PRs) squashes any hope Rossi could possibly have in overturning the RD's decision.

2. Burden of Proof - Given that the decision to DQ Rossi is within the discretion of the RD - and given that Rossi has no appeal right - Rossi would have to file a civil suit and prove by (at a minimum) the preponderance of the evidence that he ran all 26.2 miles of the marathon. Good luck with that. And he ain't gonna pay $50,000 - $75,000 in attorneys fees and costs to fight the DQ in a public forum - unless his narcissism is writing checks his bank account can't cash.

3. Circumstantial vs. Direct Evidence. The law draws no distinction between circumstantial evidence and direct evidence in terms of weight or importance. And we are not in a court of law. Unless Rossi confesses - or unless someone comes forward to say they saw (or helped) him cheat, there will be no direct evidence. It's all circumstantial. And, IMHO, it's overwhelming.

And has easy access to I-78, which takes you right from the start and right to the end of the race. It's door-to-door cheating.

And his best defense seems to be rhetoric and trolling, not the information he could produce to help. The pictures alone would be a DQ without further input of facts from Mike. I know that 3:11 is not possible for him with his training, weather and other race efforts at his age. He's going to be DQ'ed.And he and Rosie will never admit the mistake but the notoriety is forever, so a win there.

routemaker wrote:

You guys really don't understand how unlikely it is that he ran the full course AND doesn't have any pictures. The numbers have been run and it is less than a .001% chance.

^THIS! BOOM!

Thanks for laying this out so thoroughly yet succinctly. I'll copy and paste your post when this topic comes up in another 30 pages or so.

rafa1 wrote:

Deer Madam Race Director:

100% clear positive photographic evidence that did not make it from point A to point B on the marathon course

WRONG ! ..... there are photos of him at the start , his bib is registered as crossing the start , there is photo and video of him finishing , so he definitely made it from point A-B ..... how that was accomplished is open to conjecture , but all I've heard so far is where he wasn't , based on a flimsy lack of photos reasoning.....sorry , I need to see proof of wear he WAS not where he WASN"T..... show me where he was . Prove it to me !! .... I'm waiting !

Concern over headphone usage isn't the OP's concern; he/she is trying to both explain the difference between concrete proof and circumstantial evidence as well as making the point that there could be some collateral damage as we continue to carpet bomb the area.

I think those debating whether there is enough evidence for the DQ are missing one key piece of evidence.

Mike has said himself that he has GPS logs to verify his training: "Yahoo Canada asked if Rossi had any GPS logs of his training, or of his race at Lehigh Valley. He said yes, but declined to provide them for verification."

By his own admission he has the GPS logs that would refute the claims against him. I'd think that with the other evidence the LV investigators can fairly ask him to provide those logs, and if he refuses to do so then they have solid grounds for the DQ.

keeping it real wrote:

rafa1 wrote:

Deer Madam Race Director:

100% clear positive photographic evidence that did not make it from point A to point B on the marathon course

WRONG ! ..... there are photos of him at the start , his bib is registered as crossing the start , there is photo and video of him finishing , so he definitely made it from point A-B ..... how that was accomplished is open to conjecture , but all I've heard so far is where he wasn't , based on a flimsy lack of photos reasoning.....sorry , I need to see proof of wear he WAS not where he WASN"T..... show me where he was . Prove it to me !! .... I'm waiting !

You don't get a finisher's medal - or a BQ - by "making it" from point A to point B. You have to run the 26.19999 in between. The certainty you are demanding is found nowhere else in our society/law.

Mike, you're busy today trying to muddy the picture! Doesn't surprise me that the same guy who would crucify his children's principle online/in social media would also try to have the marathon times of runners wearing headphones thrown out because he was caught cheating in a marathon… what a loser! Do you cheat on your wife too? Cheat on your taxes? The more you go online posting crap, trying to defend yourself, muddy the waters, and troll this forum, the more people will get pissed off and insistent that you are DQ'd.

YellowLab wrote:

I suggest we put to rest the discussion of the standard of proof needed to DQ Rossi, who has the burden of proof, and whether the RD can DQ Rossi based on circumstantial, rather than direct, evidence.

In addition, the RD can wield the conditions of the waiver on a case by case basis. It is not a blanket requirement to DQ everyone breaking any rule such as wearing headphones or running with a pet. It should be applied to MR because he did not run the entire race based on the photographic evidence.

keeping it real wrote:

rafa1 wrote:

Deer Madam Race Director:

100% clear positive photographic evidence that did not make it from point A to point B on the marathon course

WRONG ! ..... there are photos of him at the start , his bib is registered as crossing the start , there is photo and video of him finishing , so he definitely made it from point A-B ..... how that was accomplished is open to conjecture , but all I've heard so far is where he wasn't , based on a flimsy lack of photos reasoning.....sorry , I need to see proof of wear he WAS not where he WASN"T..... show me where he was . Prove it to me !! .... I'm waiting !

He was the only runner (and I use that word loosely) not to have one single picture between the start line and finish line. Every other runner has at least one, if not more pictures through out the course. That in and of itself is enough circumstantial and even direct proof that he did not run the entire course. The fact that his time was extraordinary and that a man (again, I use that word loosely) who has the need to post and boast about every other race, every other training run, every other time, and every other thing he does yet keeps his mouth virtually silent in not only the run of his life, under harsh conditions, is additional and secondary circumstantial evidence.

In other words, the lack of photos on the course, unless some non-professional has photos of him, is evidence enough not only for the RD but for civil court proceedings and the preponderance of evidence hurdle.

keeping it real wrote:

WRONG ! ..... there are photos of him at the start , his bib is registered as crossing the start , there is photo and video of him finishing , so he definitely made it from point A-B ..... how that was accomplished is open to conjecture , but all I've heard so far is where he wasn't , based on a flimsy lack of photos reasoning.....sorry , I need to see proof of wear he WAS not where he WASN"T..... show me where he was . Prove it to me !! .... I'm waiting !

Please. Stop posting on here. Your objections have been addressed many times over and even the brojos would grimace at your incomprehensible grammar. Repeating the same poorly reasoned and articulated argument doesn't make it any more true, only more annoying.

elephino wrote:

Has it happened before? wrote:

Right, but in the case of MR, he didn't technically miss any timing mats. In other words, I'm wondering if there has every been a case with these exact same pieces of evidence (missing photos, lack of training runs at a corresponding pace) that resulted in a DQ.

What hard evidence was used to DQ Rosie Ruiz?

It was a witness. One guy saw Rosie walk through the spectators, jump on the course, and start running, so he reported her.

The marathon isn't going to do anything. All they are thinking of right now is how to make sure it doesn't happen in the future and how to get more participants.

Perfect example is their facebook page. No mention by anyone that I can see...

The marathon isn't going to do anything. All they are thinking of right now is how to make sure it doesn't happen in the future and how to get more participants.

Perfect example is their facebook page. No mention by anyone that I can see...

RusieRoiz wrote:

It was a witness. One guy saw Rosie walk through the spectators, jump on the course, and start running, so he reported her.

AND, she didn't know what an interval was when asked in an interview if she did them. Has anyone asked MR if he knows what an interval is?!!!

Sounds to me like someone is still in stage one of loss and grief: Denial and Isolation.

Shut down all your social networks, stop blogging, kill the Twitter account, make your Facebook private, isolate yourself...hope this all just goes away.

Then go into denial that you are caught and you are going to get DQed.

"This can't happen to me. I'm the great Mike Rossi. You know, the guy who wrote the awesome letter. And I really ran that marathon. (Actually I didn't but you can't prove it!). I got a qualifier at Lehigh. I did! By tomorrow this will all be straightened out and I will be loved again."

Nope.