Adapting 10K training program for marathon training?

interestingly enough, Frank Shorter was a believer in 10 k training for the marathon distance.

Train for a 10 k and eliminate one speed day and replace it with a long distance day.

The other days to be spent as if training for a 10 k.

I feel like I'm getting trolled here, and you don't mention your10K times, but here goes.

That's extremely solid mileage and training for a 55-year old. I was expecting some variation on the usual C25K plans, but that's a solid all-round program.

Using that plan as a basis, there are a few things I'd shift around. Right now there are 4 workouts (including the long run) each week in that plan. Is that sustainable for you? I'm younger than you, but I could only handle 2 workouts per week during marathon training (or any other kind of training). You might have to expand the cycle to 10-14 days to fit everything in.

Here's what I'd change:

Increase mileage by running farther on easy and steady days, and by adding additional warm-up/cool-down miles to workout days.

Slowly push out the long run distance to whatever you can handle.

Your Tuesday intervals at mile-5K pace are less important for a marathon. Keep those sessions, but do them less frequently, and only do enough volume for maintenance.

Your Thursday hill sessions are also less important for a marathon. Also do them less frequently and with less volume, especially if you're planning to run a marathon on a flat course.

Your Saturday tempo run is much more important. Increase the distance gradually, although you'll also need to reduce the pace a bit.

Here's the part where people will disagree. Some programs would say that your 10K pace intervals are a key workout. Personally, I'd lump them in with the less important mile-5K paces, and instead turn the steady run into a key workout that gets gradually longer and closer to your marathon pace.

Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply, even more thoughtful if you suspected I was a troll. I'll try to work in your suggestions.

No trolling, I swear. My post already seemed long-winded, so I tried to just include the essentials. I've only run two 10Ks. In January 2018 I ran 48:48 and on December 29, 2018, after the 8-week program, I ran 44:40. My best half-marathon time was in February 2018 at 1:46:42. I've run just two marathons, the first in August 2018. I wanted to come in under 4:00 and ran 3:59:20. Then I ran another seven weeks later, aiming for 3:55 but managed only 3:59:02. These are the numbers I have.

You're right that it's a tough program and honestly, when I chose it I said, "I can't do this." But I planned to use it as a framework and, if necessary, cut down on mileage here or there, or repetitions for intervals, or paces, or even take an extra day off now and then, but my body has held up fine with the program as written. After doing the first eight weeks and running the race, I just started over from week one but with updated target paces based on my new 10K time (except the "easy" pace, which I left alone). I'm almost two weeks into the second round and it's still going fine, except for the hill workouts. I can't maintain my new 5K and 10K paces on the hills, so I just use my old paces, they're already punishing enough.

Thank you again for your help.

Joe Bee wrote:

interestingly enough, Frank Shorter was a believer in 10 k training for the marathon distance.

Train for a 10 k and eliminate one speed day and replace it with a long distance day.

The other days to be spent as if training for a 10 k.

I imagine Frank Shorter had an aerobic base as wide as the Great Plains. I'm not sure if if his training would work with me.

Start here,

In re-reading your response, I have a question. You say "turn the steady run into a key workout that gets gradually longer and closer to your marathon pace." My marathon pace, based on the two I've run , is 9:07/mile. The steady runs I do now are at 8:00/mile. The target paces in the program are based on maximum heart rate, which I don't know. I know my best 10K race result is 7:12/mile , so for training I set that at 7:15. I use 7:30 for tempo pace, 8:00 for steady pace and 9:00 or less for easy pace. This has worked well so far. What are you recommending for the steady runs, scheduled for Wednesdays on the program I'm using?

Thanks for any help.

Since you've run a recent 10K race, your best bet is to plug the time into your favorite calculator. Using Jack Daniels's calculator suggests a tempo/"Threshold" pace of 7:23, 7:51 for MP, and 8:51-9:25 for easy pace. So actually fairly close to what you've been doing, close enough that the difference isn't all that important. You're probably capable of a faster marathon than you've run before. Does that mean you can go out and run 3:25, or go out and run 3:25 after a training block? Maybe, not necessarily, but it's not a bad goal to shoot for. So, yes, 7:50-8:20 is a great range for steady runs.

By the way, I checked the results for the biggest local 10K (1000+ finishers, prize money in the 3 figures for overall winners, gift cards for age group winners), and your time would win or be close to winning the M55 and M50 age groups. Maybe not winning every year, but definitely competitive.

Daniels calculator:

https://runsmartproject.com/calculator/

Start here,

Thanks for the Daniels calculator.

The training pace calculator makes sense to me but I'm not sure what to make of the race equivalent calculator. The marathon pace given there is about 40 seconds faster than my best half-marathon pace, which was less than a year ago. I would love to be able to race like that, but in reality it would be suicidal.

In my 10K race, I finished only 5th of 22 in my age group (50-59). The fastest among us was 52 years old and ran 36:56 for second place overall. I'm planning another 10K race in ten days or so. I'm curious how it will turn out.

I'm thinking of replacing some of my short intervals and hill workouts with an 8-mile unstructured fartlek. It would be a change and maybe refreshing to just run based on feel at random paces without paying so much attention to the watch.

Thanks for your help.

I agree that the Daniels calculator is pretty ambitious when it comes to marathon equivalents. After a spring HM, my fall marathon was about 5 minutes/around 12 seconds/mile slower than predicted, but marathon projections are not as certain to begin with, and it can take a while to reach that level if it's even possible. At first the idea of running at the predicted pace for 26.2 miles seemed utterly ridiculous, but after going through it, I can see how it might be possible with more training and perfect conditions. So don't rule it out as a theoretical impossibility quite yet.

Your times suggest you really are significantly more fit now than a year ago. If you can run a 44:40 10K, you should be able to get close to 1:39 in the HM. That might not get you to 3:25 in a marathon, but sub-3:40 should be attainable. (But not guaranteed - the marathon is a weird race.) Good luck with the 10K race.