Tinman CV pace/ int. muslce fiber question.

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

Speed means fast as in sprinting wrote wrote:

Yes, that is exactly what I'm telling you, fool. A 51 flat dude with stamina can run 1:48. The strong kicking 1500m men can run 400m in 46.x (Marcin Lewandowski is an example.) Seb Coe could run a 46.x 400m. Drew aint going anywhere near that fast over 400m, doubtful he will ever break 50.0. So at the end of a top flight race, kickers like Lewandowski or Robbie Andrews blow past Drew like he's walking.

You're welcome (for teaching you something about middle distance.)

+1. Tinman said Drew was only good for ~51 in hs (maybe that’s changed, maybe not). In slow races his slower 400m speed is why will get him. But that’s why they’re training him for longer kicks and eventually probably 5ks

Lewandowski's and Robby Andrews' 1500 PRs are both 3:34. Drew's is 3:35.

When you're comparing to top international talent, maybe he's "average", but then there is nothing average about top international talent and that's my point.

Well "fast" is a relative term. I was referring to the fact that a lot of these guys probably have a lot more FT fibers compared to a more "slow twitch" 10km-marathon type runner (even though some may do the 10km, xc and even marathon eventually). Much like I would say a 62-min half marathon runner is "fast" relative to his marathon time if he has only run 2:12. The goal would be to get the 62-min half guy to try to run under 2:10 instead and he need better stamina and endurance to pull that off. The whole idea was to talk about CV training (or 90-94% max HR/Vo2max whatever training) in regards to muscle fiber stimulation and adaptation. You're right I don't see anything that is very revolutionary. It is is science. But there is a certain art in applying the science for an individual athlete (or team) for ideal adaptations in a progressive training program. That's what adds a lot of variables to coaching and the challenge many coaches face. You are one referencing terms like "layering" and "keeping the ball rolling" and what "fast" means relative to x...which I think is all too subjective and missing the point. The whole idea is we want FT fibers to act more like ST fibers so we have better stamina and Running Economy at paces close to our competition race paces. If you have the speed to run a 50.0 sec quarter, you should be thinking about building the stamina to run a sub 1:46-1:45 at least. Likewise if you are a 14:00 5km guy you should be looking to train to have the stamina to go at least sub 29:00. Not everyone can do that...and a lot comes down to FT/ST muscle fiber ratios and relative Running Economy. But we can use Threshold training, high mileage, CV etc to help bridge that gap of not having enough stamina/endurance.

S. Canaday wrote:

If you have the speed to run a 50.0 sec quarter, you should be thinking about building the stamina to run a sub 1:46-1:45 at least.

Agree with pretty much everything you wrote except the above. There is no way a person with 50 400m speed EVER can build the stamina to run a sub 1:46-1:45 !! I know it's a minor detail and not super relevant to the main point but a lot of long distance people just don't get the speed necessary for mid distance times. A 50 with the right training might get you a 1:50!

The reason why I float the terms “layering” out there is because that is the terminology that Tom uses to do just that....bridge the gap between fiber composition/use. Again, CV, threshold, whatever is NOT enough to do so. Tom says it isn’t enough to take a relatively “fast” guy and simply increase his stamina like you claim. You have to do other things as well. If you can’t honestly see that, then now I know why you sentenced yourself to ultra running.

Of course one won't only do CV training. I never even hinted at that. I was originally posting about fiber types, lactate clearance and aerobic adaptations on this thread anyway. Obviously one needs a well rounded training program with alactic sprints, faster pace work, long runs etc. And don't worry I'll still be racing "sub ultra" distances as well....

Former Sub 14:00 wrote:

The reason why I float the terms “layering” out there is because that is the terminology that Tom uses to do just that....bridge the gap between fiber composition/use. Again, CV, threshold, whatever is NOT enough to do so. Tom says it isn’t enough to take a relatively “fast” guy and simply increase his stamina like you claim. You have to do other things as well. If you can’t honestly see that, then now I know why you sentenced yourself to ultra running.

You're right. I got a little excited there. Probably should have said 1:49. I won't pretend to know much about high level 400m/800m training and racing.

seattle dude wrote:

S. Canaday wrote:

If you have the speed to run a 50.0 sec quarter, you should be thinking about building the stamina to run a sub 1:46-1:45 at least.

Agree with pretty much everything you wrote except the above. There is no way a person with 50 400m speed EVER can build the stamina to run a sub 1:46-1:45 !! I know it's a minor detail and not super relevant to the main point but a lot of long distance people just don't get the speed necessary for mid distance times. A 50 with the right training might get you a 1:50!

I think your last sentence hits the nail on the head... In running, training is easy, but coaching is really, really hard.

Sorry, I meant to say training is simple, but coaching is really really complicated.

seattle dude wrote:

S. Canaday wrote:

If you have the speed to run a 50.0 sec quarter, you should be thinking about building the stamina to run a sub 1:46-1:45 at least.

Agree with pretty much everything you wrote except the above. There is no way a person with 50 400m speed EVER can build the stamina to run a sub 1:46-1:45 !! I know it's a minor detail and not super relevant to the main point but a lot of long distance people just don't get the speed necessary for mid distance times. A 50 with the right training might get you a 1:50!

1:45 may be out of the question, but I'm sure there are plenty of ~50 flat guys who can run a least 1:47. Specifically milers i.e. Kyle Merber, Nick Willis, Centro, etc.

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

seattle dude wrote:

Agree with pretty much everything you wrote except the above. There is no way a person with 50 400m speed EVER can build the stamina to run a sub 1:46-1:45 !! I know it's a minor detail and not super relevant to the main point but a lot of long distance people just don't get the speed necessary for mid distance times. A 50 with the right training might get you a 1:50!

1:45 may be out of the question, but I'm sure there are plenty of ~50 flat guys who can run a least 1:47. Specifically milers i.e. Kyle Merber, Nick Willis, Centro, etc.

I knew someone who could easily run 1:47 but not any faster to save his life and I think his fastest 400m was maybe as slow as 52.0, not faster than 51.0, but he was an absolute aerobic beast with great range from 1:47 800m to 3:57 mile and he was one of the faster half marathoners.