Road Racing and Training Thread (Chicago Edition) - Week Ending 10/7/18

Allen - it is my personal opinion that the 3-4 days running but each day much longer increases the chance for injury and not decreases it. not only are you going longer and on your feet more at one time.. but the pace could get skewed as the legs are fresher for each run. The body is very resilient if used often. It recovers much faster the more often a person runs.. one of the benefit of doubles imo. If you I would run 8-10 times per week but shorter with an off day.. I think that is the way to prevent injury and build mileage with the least amount of stress.

Just my 2 cents.

runrincerepeat wrote:

... If you I would run 8-10 times per week but shorter with an off day.. I think that is the way to prevent injury and build mileage with the least amount of stress.

Thanks, RRR. Indeed, I should have mentioned that I am also looking at doubles as a means toward overall higher mileage.

Adding easy 3- or 4-mile runs most mornings, with longer afternoon runs, would be a significant boost in total volume.

Heck, how about alternating weeks ... doubles one week, days off and longer high-quality runs the next? So many possibilities!

How about this. I think someone running Sub3 at 60 has to go down on the badassery chart somewhere. It's up there with the elites dropping sub 2:10 in my opinion. I'll start scouring everything I can to help you.

I was thinking earlier, you guys that have raced lately have probably out performed all the elite teams. That's just incredible.

Pappy wrote:

How about this. I think someone running Sub3 at 60 has to go down on the badassery chart somewhere. It's up there with the elites dropping sub 2:10 in my opinion. I'll start scouring everything I can to help you.

I was thinking earlier, you guys that have raced lately have probably out performed all the elite teams. That's just incredible.

Could not agree more—sub3 at 60 is ultra badass. Also agree that this thread is making the elite teams look rather underwhelming. After all, Smoove did put SIX MINUTES on Gwen. Smoove - at what point did you roll her up or were you ahead of her from early on? I am still in awe of your performance. All of you guys went out and threw down!

Thanks for the kind words guys. I was a little upset right after the race because I felt like I had a good buffer on sub 2:28 as late as 40k, but my legs just didn't have anything on Roosevelt. I'm still happy to take the PR. My official time was 2:28:04, which would have been 2:28:00 if chip timed ( no chip timing is used in the ADP corral). I'm just glad I didn't run one second faster.

Mike looked exactly like he does in his Strava profile. When I saw him and Smoove they were very under control and talking easily right on pace so it's no surprise that they had great races. Very happy for both of you guys along with AJ and GT. Pretty amazing the caliber of runners in this community. Hope everyone is having a great week.

Good work Andy!

Was just an awesome morning tracking my boys.. watching the elite race.. texting with Pappy about the race.. Just a great time. Has given me ultra motivation to really try and throw down a good race come Sunday.

High Tide on the RRTT raises all boats!!

Speaking off..

Allen - it is incredible you going after the sub 3.. if you need a group of pacers I am sure we could rustle up a nice crew!

runrincerepeat wrote:

Allen - it is incredible you going after the sub 3.. if you need a group of pacers I am sure we could rustle up a nice crew!

You know, Allen’s sub3 at 60 would be so awesome that I would love to move up there to NYS and train with him, train in that nice cool weather and run lots of prog. flyers with him, give him the support, motivation, and respect he deserves, and then pace him to something like 2:58. What a dream hat would be.

Pappy wrote:

... I'll start scouring everything I can to help you.

:)

There have been few M60 sub-3's in the U.S. this year. From this past weekend, I see 3:00:15 at Twin Cities, and 2:50:33, 2:55:34, 2:56:42 , 2:59:08 at Chicago. I don't know if those are gun or chip times.

OR and RRR - Thanks! October 6, 2019 is a long ways off. We'll see how it goes ... But the thread mojo and fantastic Chicago results have gotten me fired up.

RRR - Have a great race this weekend!

For those who are heart rate guys, I thought you might find this interesting. Gordon sent me a spreadsheet that calculates your various heart rate ranges for various effort levels based on your max and resting heart rates. Based on that spreadsheet and the general Daniels range, My heart rate should have been in the high 140s early, should have been in the mid to upper 150s throughout the race, and should have topped out in the low 160s.

Since I had never worn a watch with a heart rate monitor in a marathon before, I decided to not look at my heart rate during the race at all. I figured that no good could come out of it since I really had no frame of reference outside of what my heart rate was on hot training days here.

As it turns out, my heart rate was in the high 150s at the start (probably as a result of an inadvertently fast first mile (5:30)) and through the first 65 minutes or so of the race with a couple of 160 readings. For the bulk of the rest of the race, it was in the high 140s to low 150s, with some pockets of mid-to-upper 150s and a nice little spike towards the end. 153 average throughout the race.

Interesting to see that the actual data lined up pretty well with the theoretical data, and interesting to see that data confirm my subjective impression that my aerobic fitness did not keep me from going sub 2:30, but rather my muscular endurance is ultimately what got me.

Also interesting that so many of my easy distance days in hot Florida weather resulted in heart rates similar to those I registered yesterday in race conditions. Those runs were run at 7:10 pace for the most part, and were definitely done at a conversational pace, but they also happened to be done at my M heart rate. So maybe I got in a whole lot more M miles than I thought,

Allen1959 wrote:

The question is, what would it take for a 60-year-old with a modest lifetime PR of 2:40 to run sub-3:00 (age-graded "2:26")?

Hey Allen,

Here are a few thoughts, for what they're worth.

The first has to do with the way that you're phrasing the question. What you're thinking about would certainly be an epic undertaking, and I think everyone here recognizes that it would be a tremendous accomplishment to pull it off. That being said, if I'm not mistaken, you've already run a 3:07 at age 58, so it's not like you're just coming off the couch with a 2:40 PR from twenty or thirty years ago. You have a recent result that puts you within striking distance of your goal, and I would encourage you to take confidence from that.

There are other things that you should take confidence as well. One is your record of being a very good racer with the ability to get the utmost out of your fitness in competition. Frankly, there are people who would need to be in, say, 2:55 shape in order to actually run 2:59. You are not one of those people. On the contrary, you should feel confident that if you get to the starting line healthy and in shape to run 2:59, you can run 2:59. This is a big thing.

Another thing that should give you confidence is your speed. I know that the recent 200s were kind of a fiasco (mea culpa, mea culpa, maxima mea culpa), but from a diagnostic perspective they should convince you that you currently possess more than enough speed to run 2:59. This, again, is a big thing. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of marathoners in their late 50s/early 60s could never run under 3:00 even if they were to get as fit as they could possibly get, because they simply do not have and cannot reasonably hope to develop the necessary speed to do so. And I would further venture to guess that out of the very small minority that could conceivably run under 3:00, most would still need to cope with lack of speed as a significant constraint on their performance. What you did with the 200s shows that this is simply not a problem for you, which means that you can focus your efforts on developing endurance, and ultimately marathon-specific endurance, while just touching on speed with a few laid-back strides here and there.

A third thing that you have going for you is the effectiveness of your training. The question was asked a little while back, "Who on the thread trains in a way that gets the most out of their abilities?" There are a lot of people who are doing great things here, and in very different ways, but in all honesty, the person that came to my mind was you. Your training, historically, has been somewhat unconventional in that it has been quite low in volume (something that wouldn't work for me, unfortunately...), but it's very simple, it's very straightforward, and it has been very effective for you. Sure, there are probably things that you can tinker with and improve, but I would encourage you to have confidence in your basic approach.

Hope this is helpful!

PS: It was an interesting week for me, somewhat in the sense of the proverbial Chinese curse. In answer to your question, the "old sledding hill" is a trail that runs uphill for a couple hundred yards or so (forming a connector that turns my big loop on Robert's Hill into a figure 8). The surface is mostly dirt interspersed with some roots and rocks, and the grade generally gets steeper as your go, approaching the pitch of a New England roof. The going is rough enough that it would be hard to use for real speed work, but it's decently runnable. It would certainly work as a "killer hill" if somebody wanted to use it that way, but at this point, I'm just using it for general strength and endurance, so when I say I'm running it easy what I really mean is that I'm trying to keep a steady effort on the climb, maintain good form, and not blow myself up. The days when I'm running the sledding hill are supposed to function as a different kind of "easy day" at this stage.

The name of the hill comes from the fact that there used to be a rusted-out steel-runner sled leaning against a tree near the bottom of the hill.

Chicago All-Stars First

By my count, everyone PRed?

Andy - 2:28 is moving. No shame in hitting a new PR.

Smoove - A PR and age group win!!! Incredible how much you got out of yourself on raceday. Goes to show that stacking up unimpressive training (by your standards) can lead to incredible races.

AJ - How many marathons in a row have you PRed now? Seems like at least three. Keep it up.

Gordon - Congrats on sub3. Huge accomplishment and perfectly executed race

Now to the rest of you

Stone - Glad you were able to feel inspired by the end of the week. Its important to carry that through not just running but the rest of life as well

TDR - Hope your first day of training for the half goes well

WH - Enjoy la isla

hantph - nice week. When does your XC season start?

CoachJeff - congrats on the 10k win, and a PR too if you count such courses?

RunGuy - Tough solo half

RRR - Two solid workouts for you. Keep it up

th3bt - Great half and good to know your MIL is proud of you

sub 6 - Ouch, bummer this took you our of Detroit.

Bdubs- The eikeden style relay sounds fun

Allen - Thats a solid long run, yes. the trail 12k was a blast. Just frustrating at times because I was limited by my equipment (and to some extent trail running skills)

Sam - Nice 3x3 and yes, I'm sore in all sorts of strange places

Pappy - How'd the kiddos do this weekend?

OR - solid week

pedro - welcome to the thread

slo - saying you went big on Friday is a bit of an understatement.

GFMAH - nice TT

Still Improving - plenty of time to get healthy and train before CIM

RunnersFix - welcome back

krishna - Good luck on the 8k

jewbacca - consistent week and get well soon

Might run a road 15k this next weekend. For some reason 3x18:00 5ks is the number popping in my head as a good goal even though my 10k PR is only 36:30. Might come in with heavy legs as I'm planning on doing 50mpw again this week (high mileage for me, haha), plus two gym days as my main goal this fall are some 5ks in November.

Thanks pewow. Pap has been dialing it up. We did 16x400 today.

Is the race this coming weekend? I say go for it! No taper here either I’m gonna do roughly 80 before the Sunday race but dialing down any hard running.

I only see good things happening from racing more.

GFMP - very well written post.

Pewow - Thanks man. That’s 2 marathon PR’s in row (Boston and Chicago 2018). I’ve also Pr’d this year in the half (Houston), a local 10k, and I matched by 5k PR this summer on the track. Been a good year so far. Maybe I should close it out with a fast mile and a better 5k time.

“Stone - Glad you were able to feel inspired by the end of the week. Its important to carry that through not just running but the rest of life as well.” Pewow, you are wise beyond your years.

gfmah - Agree with RRR. Marvelous post. Really good stuff.

I am traveling for work this week. Presently sitting on a beach in Myrtle Beach before all day conferences the next three days. But starting tonight through Thursday morning I should get in some good running. Life is good...

GFMPH - Thanks for that thoughtful analysis. Wow! Your insights certainly are encouraging!

(my PR was 36 years ago, but who's counting?! ... and most recent sub-3 was 15 years ago ...)

Your sledding hill efforts sound exactly as I imagined, but the hill itself is quite different. I pictured a mown, grassy slope ... like the "sledding hills" in the parks around here. Well, the hills in the parks a county or two away ... too darn flat in this neighborhood.

Sipping a beer in a dingy bar, listening to King Crimson, after biking around town, going to art museums and a falafel shop. (I have the day off but my wife has to work.)

SC - Sorry again about the sad news. Solid finish to that 13.1.

TDR - How did the Banana Man run? I saw some good costumes at a race on Saturday, but it was a spooky 5k in a cemetery. (No one had to lug their stuff for 26.2.)

WH - Have a good trip.

Harrier - Looks like good prep for XC.

Jeff - Got a kick out of that race report. Congrats on the W nonetheless.

RRR - Glad you’re still feeling great. Keep it rolling.

Th3bt - Almost time to land the plane. Your description of Cheongdo reminds me of something from Italo Calvino’s Invisible Cities.

Pewow - That race sounds like a monster. Basically the type of course where my competitive advantage would be at its least.

Bdubs - Sucks to have the uncertainty of maybe being injured. Makes it harder to do the safe thing and take rest. (That’s probably the right thing to do.)

Allen - That’s one h*ck of a long run.

Sam - Big miles. Very consistent on the 3x3. Your goal is very realistic.

AJ - Congrats on the PR. Sorry you didn’t beat Rupp.

Gordon - Peculiar long run there... (Congrats on the PR as well.)

Smoove - Great job. My bet for you would’ve also been around 2:32-2:33, although seeing your decomposition of long runs made me more optimistic about your chances. Hope you take another stab at the marathon sometime. It’s a dumb sport, but it has its beauty.

Pappy - Haven’t made it to Poland yet, so very excited about the trip. My brother has lived there for 3 years now and seems to like it.

OR - If you’re doing a fartlek by Wednesday and then low-grade flyers in the humidity, you’ve recovered well. (What is with this weather?)

Pedro - Welcome to the thread.

Slo - Big 24 miler. Breaking 2:30 is within your reach.

GFMAH - Love that usage of “wangle.”

SI - Hope your sole is is better soon. With all that biking your fitness will be there when you get back.

RF - What’s the goal for CIM?

Krishna - Hope you had a fun workout. I’m not allowed to do Michigans, as my wife is a Michigan State alumna.

Time to get a haircut. Will get to the rest later...

I think I got to everyone except Andy. Apologies if I missed anyone this week.

Andy - Good run. On the plus side, you never have to feel like you have to qualify your PR as “2:27 high.” (My marathon PR ends in :56, so I usually do that. The half, however, ends in :01.) What’s next?

Smoove - Just popping in to say congrats. As a huge fan of yours (and Daniels follower), very proud of what you put down yesterday. Maybe this will stop some of the "Daniels is crap" nonsense people always reply with when you post.