Road Racing and Training Thread (Chicago Edition) - Week Ending 10/7/18

too hot - You are so spot-on right in regard to energy demand and the marathon.

outsiderunner wrote:

team 1 - Great to hear from you and thanks!

I am pretty much still doing the same thing, though I have tried adding some things here and there, and instead of medium and long fast-finish progressions at around 7:00 avg., it is now medium and long fast-finish progressions mostly in the 6:30-6:40 avg. pace range, and faster than that in better conditions. I have the Richmond Marathon coming up (Nov. 10) and am looking at 2:45. I have also registered for Boston 2019. Regarding the next six months, all I can say is: what a ride it is going to be!

OR - 2:45 is a massive improvement. super excited for you. Can't wait to see how you do!

runrincerepeat wrote:

I meant to add... why on earth run a downhill thon?! Those things will leave you hobbled for weeks if not injured for longer.

RR - Why a downhill marathon? Well, a few reasons. First, Mrs. Team 1 suggested it. My running priorities have been a point of contention (being gone in the mornings and missing the daily routine while she is overrun by our 4 kids, being gone long on weekends for long trail runs or races, in general letting other important stuff be lower priority) so I've tried to step back from running and racing over the past year. When she suggests I run something, it's hard to say no. Second, it runs right by my house so I know the course pretty well and the whole family can come watch me finish. Third, because I'm a wicked downhill runner and this one really tests my ability to stretch those short and medium-distance trail downhill strava records into something more substantive. I figure I'm a 2:45-2:50 marathon runner (my 17:23 5K puts me there) on the flats and I figure a good 10-15 minutes faster on this one for an easy PR. I ran a spur-of-the-moment 15:56 5K on this road in a morning run a couple weeks ago off no training (well, my 20-mpw slow-five-milers-three-to-four-times-a-week-maintenance-over-the-hot-summer training) so I think if I can hold my body together I'll be able to blast this thon. The tricky part, as you noted, is holding my body together. I did a hard 20-miler Monday and it beat me up a bit, but I'm back in the saddle and may do that one more time to prep my body for that abuse. I've heard a lot of warnings from people I respect so I'm taking the prep seriously but I'm confident I can do it. The big issue with this race is the eccentric loading and the increased quad use. Monday gives me confidence in my ability to run a smart race that won't leave me injured. I've put about 50 miles of downhill on the course in the last two weeks and I run it regularly (though usually only up and back 8 miles). Anyway, I understand the concern and when I'm done I'll write up a post that either says "to all the haters" or delete all my social media accounts and go into hiding except to troll LRC.

Team 1- looks like MT Lemmon Revel Marathon. Only thing I can add is be careful with those pounding, fast, downhill runs like that. Two years ago while building up for Stagecoach 100 miler I was spending a lot of time on Mt Ord, working the climbs and absolutely barreling the downs. No sooner did I get to the point where the downs weren’t beating me up at all did my SI Joint flare up and cause me to DNS Stagecoach that year. Good luck. When is race day?

Side note, I was just thinking yesterday that I need to take a trip down to Tucson sometime and run the river path again. It’s been years since I did that but last time i did I got to see Lagat lacing them up for a run.

Working Harder wrote:

Team 1- looks like MT Lemmon Revel Marathon. Only thing I can add is be careful with those pounding, fast, downhill runs like that. Two years ago while building up for Stagecoach 100 miler I was spending a lot of time on Mt Ord, working the climbs and absolutely barreling the downs. No sooner did I get to the point where the downs weren’t beating me up at all did my SI Joint flare up and cause me to DNS Stagecoach that year. Good luck. When is race day?

Side note, I was just thinking yesterday that I need to take a trip down to Tucson sometime and run the river path again. It’s been years since I did that but last time i did I got to see Lagat lacing them up for a run.

Yes! The same race. It's Nov. 3, about 3 weeks away. I'm trying to be pretty sensitive to aches but nothing giving me big warnings right now. After that last 20 I was beat up for two days and took some rest with lots of hydration and foam rolling, plus I got a shaman to pray over me but then he got eaten by crocs. My last long run next week will be a lot easier in terms of pace. It might be 23 all-downhill but I'm not sure. I'm about 40% at this point about doing this vs. just running an up and back 15-miler. DNS would be a big shame.

Hit me up on strava if you make it down here. I think Bernie is in Flagstaff right now, though, tearing it up with 20-milers at 5:40 pace.

runrincerepeat wrote:

I meant to add... why on earth run a downhill thon?! Those things will leave you hobbled for weeks if not injured for longer.

St George is on my bucket list. Well organized, competitive, and the scenery is superb. Looks like Mt Lemmon has similar virtues.

Ouch. Today is the first day my quads aren't complaining a little bit going down stairs, and Chicago is dead flat. I can't imagine how I'd feel after this.

some rest with lots of hydration and foam rolling, plus I got a shaman to pray over me but then he got eaten by crocs.

See, Smoove! Hydration, foam rolling, and a tasty shaman! You still have room to improve in those calf-cramping marathons!!!!

team1, I'm a big fan of mid-paragraph gold.

---

It's 2am here. I just spent an hour listening to music and watching youtube with my 16yo daughter. She's gonna be all right. Hard to raise children. Even harder to raise adults. I managed.

Run.

Watch.

Listen.

Feel.

Notice.

Acknowledge.

Absorb.

Appreciate.

Run.

Coach Jeff - Still riding high on the RRR Wagon?!

So far so good. Worked late tonight. Ran late tonight. 2:38am. I need to sleep.

Gordon Tremeshko wrote:

https://brookseeevents.s3.amazonaws.com/rml/2017/albums/RML-17_elevation%20profiles_v4_web-18.png

Ouch. Today is the first day my quads aren't complaining a little bit going down stairs, and Chicago is dead flat. I can't imagine how I'd feel after this.

Yeah one of those would break me in two! My Quads are so freaking tiny they would never be able to handle it.

Now if it was racing UP the mountain.. count me in. That Half Mary I did in March Drunk/Hungover had 2200 ft of gain.

Good job Coach! hang in there.. the benefits are just crazy

As a guy with a very long stride who was always good at going downhill, I suspect I'd end up on the right side of 2:30 on this course, even with cramping stops.

According to the Calc I ran your time thru smoove... looks to be around 2:19 on that course from a 2:30ish flat course

I (like others) enjoyed your race reports for Chicago. Great job AJ, Smoove, GT & AndyD. I only know four people that went up to race, two were pretty far off their goal and two hit there goal well

goal, result

2:35, 2:55

2:50, 2:59

3:00, 2:58

3:30, 3:27

pedro_FL - welcome to the thread, good luck getting back into running after cross training, what was the reason for the time off?

slo-twitch - nice job on that longrun, I will have a bunch of friends(Northern DE, SE PA) heading to Philly for the marathon/HM/8k this year as normal. with various goals, one of them may be shooting for sub 2:30 since he has a 2:32mid

Still Improving - I would love to be able to bike to work, hope the soleus continues to get better

RunnerFix - Looks like your setting up a good base for CIM, I can imagine those 800s were pretty boring, great LR on sunday though, you have awhile till CIM and to be able to knock out 22 @ M+~30 is great

jewbacca - nice job with 94 in 6 days, and a nice 8mi tempo @ little slower than MP

GT - nice stats there at the bottom, the 2016-2018 progress is crazy (6:45pace)

Bruin - as others have said, I'm very confused at your goals/PRs vs that training week

cocoon - welcome to the thread, looks like you are on track for about 2100-2200 miles this year, which is pretty good given your description. Dont worry about the half, its hard to race after travel. I used to feel the same way after a bad workout but you just have to convince yourself that this isnt a sport where everything will feel good everyday, many days will feel terrible, but you will push through. Its about long term consistency

I was hoping statfanatic would put up his week so we could hear (read) the 5k details but I will give some selective facts from it. Poor stat went out in a 4:40 in a local 5k and got 3rd place. It was won in a 16:29 last year (2nd was 17:18). For reference the guy who got 1st last year ran a 15:57 for 5th this year.

-RunnerSam

angryjohnny wrote:

Pewow - Thanks man. That’s 2 marathon PR’s in row (Boston and Chicago 2018). I’ve also Pr’d this year in the half (Houston), a local 10k, and I matched by 5k PR this summer on the track. Been a good year so far. Maybe I should close it out with a fast mile and a better 5k time.

AJ slo got this comment last year and now it's your turn. Sounds like you've got a nasty case of best shape of your life syndrome.

RunnerSam - I enjoy commuting by bike, but had put that aside for a while as I try for another marathon PR. I really do miss it though. Commuting by bike allows me to get 90min total workout time for the day while combining it with a commute which would normally be around 50min total. It's a bit less stressful as well. I am fortunate that I can use a rail trail for 8-9mi of a 12.5mi commute.

I would think the biking would help the Thon PR Chase? Has def helped me improve as a runner

Love me some single speed action baby!... I did cut back this week as racing on Sunday.

I have similar HR growth and downfall after a certain point. The weather in my two races was very similar, but NYC was taken as a hard training run with race effort applied in the last ~10k (~2:32:5x). Chicago was race effort from the gun (~2:28:0x). The last thing worth noting is that NYC starts with a hill. Without that, the blue heart rate line probably would have started lower.

I'd be interested in the HR chart you and Smoove were talking about earlier. My resting HR is ~39-42 and I believe my max is 183, although I haven't seen that number in more than a year.

My gut feeling is that the first 10K in Chicago was "ideal", but after that I should have leveled off and began to climb more slowly for the rest of the race. Once I get above ~165 I'm completely toast, although the damage probably started when I was above 160.

This brings up something I have wondered about over the years, post race muscle soreness and the cause of such. I was absolutely shattered after my first marathon, a marvelous 4:08 attempt, but it makes since considering I went couch to marathon (no previous running) in 94 days and probably averaged a stout 35-40 miles a week. My second attempt (3:04 and my first BQ) found me dreading stairs the next few days as well although I wasn’t near as wrecked post marathon as the first time. I guess I averaged around 60-70mpw for that one. My next and last four marathons found me feeling just fine on the following days, at least fine enough that I didn’t mind that my condo was on the second floor or walking around the city after. Those all saw new PRs each race (save for Boston 15 due to an injury that Flaired by mile 10) and mileage average steadily increased from the 70s to the low 90s.

Almost every one of those marathons I left it all out there, the exception being the injury Boston and one marathon I ran as a training run, so it doesn’t seem likely that it’s a case of effort. That only leaves me to guess it’s a matter of mileage that contributes to the days after walking shuffle and backwards stair climbing/descending. Anyone with high mileage suffer from the post marathon quad destruction or just the lower mileage runners?

Shoot me an email and I can send it to you.

bill@brooklynbornrunning.com