Suggested plan for sub-2:30 marathon?

Honestly I don't think you need or should change much. Build up the long runs to 20+ every other week as you mentioned. Then build in big segments at MP (up to 14-16mi) into your long runs still every other week. Keep the rest of your training basically the same maybe more of a 10k focus. Keep the doubles and slow easy runs. Maybe add a steady midweek 12-15mi run.

14-16 miles at MP is going to be very tough at that pace. I think I'd do shorter stinks at MP but add in some sub-MP intervals like 4x2 miles or 3x5k just under GMP.

I agree 14-16 would be tough, and only done maybe once in the cycle. Basically just build in good chucks of MP into the long run, your idea of sub-MP intervals into the long run would be good too. Also just build up the length of the long run first, then start slowly adding segments of MP and sub-MP miles.

First off, I think you are shooting for too slow a goal given your other performances. I ran 2:30 high while in 15:30/32:00 shape and was disappointed with my performance. I get wanting to pick a goal that is achievable, but who knows how many marathons you will get in during your running career.

While the fact that you are already training at relatively high volume suggests that maybe your training has less "room to grow" when you move up in distance, I would also note that your 3k and 10k times are pretty well lined up with one another, while your 5k time is the class of the bunch. That may indicate a predisposition for the 5k, or it may just mean that you have a faster time there because it is a more frequently raced distance. So if you throw that out, the alignment of your 3k and 10k times are good evidence that you aren't all that likely to fall off considerably as you move up in distance.

Now that that is out of the way, I would say that for a late April marathon, you want to start your marathon cycle right around the new year - that would be about 18 weeks out. I have trained under a Daniels approach to training, and in that world, the first 6 weeks of your 18 weeks are spent doing some threshold work, but more heavily emphasizing vo2max work so as to improve your overall fitness before you go into the main phase of training, and so that the workouts that you will do during that main phase, which will be primarily at threshold pace, feel more manageable.

Over the 12 weeks of the main phase, one workout per week would be cruise intervals at threshold pace - starting off with mile repeats w/1:00 rest and building over the course of the cycle to intervals of 1 to 3 miles with 1:00 of rest for every mile at threshold pace. So you might start off with 5 x 1 mile and then build into workouts like 4 x 2 miles, 3 miles/3 miles/2 miles, etc. The second workout of the week would alternate and would be integrated into your long run. About 1 out of every 3 weeks it would simply be a straight long run of 20-22 miles at easy distance pace. This would come during your peak mileage weeks so that you could offset the demands of the high volume with the a decrease in intensity. About 1 out of 3 of those workouts would be runs of 13-15 miles at M pace. These tend to be the most challenging for me, so they tend to be scheduled for my lowest volume weeks. The other 1 out of 3 weeks would be the classic Daniels TLT (tempo-long-tempo) - a 20-22 mile effort run as 2 mile warm up, 4 miles of cruise intervals, 8-10 miles easy, then 3-4 miles of threshold work (either as a straight tempo effort or as cruise intervals - I tend to do it the first time as cruise intervals and then build each time into a longer effort until I get to the last one which I like to do as a 15 minute continuous tempo effort).

Not everyone loves this approach, but I have had success with it as both a runner and a coach.

I think it would be something for you to consider since there are only two quality days per week and that gives you a bit more flexibility when doing the mid-week workout since you have more time to recover than you would if you did two workouts and a dedicated long run. I also think that cruise intervals create a lot of flexibility and allow for improvisation since you can adjust very easily on any given day, yet still accomplish the physiological goal of the workout by focusing on the core idea of "8 miles at threshold pace in some combination, with 1:00 of recovery for every 5:00 of work at threshold pace. " So if you go out with the plan to run 4 x 2 miles, and you feel awful, you can adjust to 7 x 1 mile, or 5 x 1.5 miles or whatever. Similarly, if you get out there and feel great, you can shift it to 3 miles/3 miles/2 miles and get the added mental benefit of focusing through longer intervals. So there is a fair amount of flexibility to allow you to shift on the fly.

I only ran 2:32:45. I’ve had numerous marathons where I’ve gone through half way 1:13:30-1:16. A couple where I was on sub 2:30 pace through 20mi.

How did that 10miler feel? You’re a minute faster than I was over 5k, but I ran a 52:30 10mi.

Long runs, runs at MP, runs at slightly faster than MP (tempo run/intervals, etc).

Sure longish efforts at MP (10mi to 30k) should be done along the way, but really any distance at MP will get you geared into that pace.

Try long runs (20-22+) with the last 3-5mi at MP. The occasional faster stuff, mile repeats, etc.

Alan

Thanks, all of you, for the very helpful suggestions.

The 10-miler felt fairly tough, owing I think to a lack of long efforts in training / not tapering for it. Of course in time I'd like to get down towards 2:20 for the marathon, but for a first attempt was inclined to begin conservatively and above all avoid blowing up. I may be able to refine the goal time after a few half-marathons or a 30K/20-mile effort towards the beginning of the training cycle.

It sounds like a sensible approach may be to spend the autumn building up long runs, with some MP worked into them, while racing some cross-country and road for variety; then get into a proper marathon build-up, with more specific workouts, from December/January along the lines of what Smoove describes? (I like the approach of two hard efforts per week, and generally find that three beats me up too much to maintain quality.)

It sounds like a sensible approach may be to spend the autumn building up long runs, with some MP worked into them, while racing some cross-country and road for variety; then get into a proper marathon build-up, with more specific workouts, from December/January along the lines of what Smoove describes? (I like the approach of two hard efforts per week, and generally find that three beats me up too much to maintain quality.)

This sounds like a good approach. You certainly have the ability for a sub 2:30 marathon. There are many approaches that can get you there, but what Smoove describes is a proven method, that I have no doubt would serve you well. Good luck and cutback if you feel an injury coming on, better to stay healthy and train at less volume for a few weeks than get injured and not run at all.

Sounds good to me. Especially having fun with some XC racing is never a bad thing.

My friends that have gone under 2:30 had a lot of success doing Daniels style workouts. Such as 2mi WU, 2 x 2 mile, 8 miles normal, 15' tempo, 1-2 CD. There's a good progression getting into these that I think Smoove should be able to comment on pretty well.

Does anyone have a suggested coach for going sub 2:30, maybe with experience getting people to lower 2:20's? I've ran 2:28 on a hilly course, and am looking for a coach to help me between now and Boston 2019, hopefully to get to the 2:22-2:24 range.

While I generally am not shy about the fact that I coach, I try to avoid a JS like spamming and solicitation of athletes. That being said, since I have already been active on this thread and you've asked, I do coach. Obviously, I use a Daniel style approach to training. I have run 2:30 myself (as a masters runner), and have coached One athlete 2:19, another to a 64:45 1/2 marathon, and a woman to a 2:45:24 (just missing an OTQ on a hot day in Chicago last year). The 64 guy will hopefully get his 2:18 in Chicago, and I have 3 women shooting for OTQ's at either CIM or Houston.

bill@brooklynbornrunning.com

Smoove wrote:

While I generally am not shy about the fact that I coach, I try to avoid a JS like spamming and solicitation of athletes. That being said, since I have already been active on this thread and you've asked, I do coach. Obviously, I use a Daniel style approach to training. I have run 2:30 myself (as a masters runner), and have coached One athlete 2:19, another to a 64:45 1/2 marathon, and a woman to a 2:45:24 (just missing an OTQ on a hot day in Chicago last year). The 64 guy will hopefully get his 2:18 in Chicago, and I have 3 women shooting for OTQ's at either CIM or Houston.

bill@brooklynbornrunning.com

Well…..you promote yourself here Smoove, so then I can do the same I think. ;) I also use Daniels, but only his VDOT paces, the other stuff in my system DANCAN is maxVO2-paced intervals, mostly 20 x 400m, and LT-paced long interval reps and steady aerobic power pace. The specific long run in my system when training for a half or marathon is special designed by myself. I have so far coached 10 international race winners in just being a coach for 3 years now. My best coaching results so far is 2:07:38 at marathon, 1:01:40 (high altitude) at half, 27:43 at 10 k road( high altitude), 28:20 at 10000m (high altitude), 13:34 at 5000m (high altitude). When I coach a guy with 1:04:45 at half he will also do at least a 2:14:30 marathon.

My background as a Swedish national elite runner for 30 years can be found at my site: coachjs.se

- The Magic Wizard -

Should be an easy match for me to coach you sub 2:30 with the personal records you have at shorter distances . You should more truly run a time like 2:22:30 with my system. I do it on less mileage than 80-100 mpw you are running now, and on just 6 sessions per week!

Kind of odd to see someone who has a stable of 2:07, 1:01, 27, and 13 minute guys begging 2:30 runners to run for him. I wonder if I can get AlSal to coach me.

I suggest you try JS as coach. He coached me just 2 months to a masters best of 15.37 at 5 k down from 16.30 before that.

I could hardly believe my result when I saw it.

Andy Dufresne wrote:

Kind of odd to see someone who has a stable of 2:07, 1:01, 27, and 13 minute guys begging 2:30 runners to run for him. I wonder if I can get AlSal to coach me.

Hehe….I`m not begging, I offer high class coaching to all levels of runners. I don`t have a multi billion company like Salazar to back me up. ;)

Not sure what % of your training is faster than marathon pace, but if it is at least 25%, I think that you are doing everything that the average qualifier did for the 2004 Olympic trials. See link below for more details. Also, more people qualify for the OT at CIM than any other marathon. Thus, if you're ready to go by Dec 2nd, maybe try that one

Just chiming in (& ignoring the coaching comments) that there's nothing wrong with getting a strong marathon under the belt. Do the training and then hit a sub-2:30 where you negative split and feel good. Racing is the only way to simulate the later stages of the marathon. So many get discouraged if they blow up in their first few attempts.

That being said I know there are some training groups out there that basically have a runner go through a full marathon cycle but then not race a marathon before their debut. I have found that I've gotten stronger the more marathon cycles I go through in the later stages of the race. More lifetime miles, more workouts at MP, more long runs, etc.

You're plenty talented and should be able to scare 2:19.

Thanks: nothing against coaches, of course, but I do think I'll stick to self-directed training (albeit with more of a plan than usual.)

A couple of questions I have still been divided on are,

(1) Quantity vs. Quality: during the marathon build-up, whether it will be better to push mileage higher (with spells of 110-120 mpw), or rather to maintain 80-100 with more quality/specific running. A poster above mentioned 25% of miles at MP or faster as being typical of OTQ-level runners: I've not yet checked the numbers, but suspect that most weeks I am well below this figure.

(2) Whether or not to attempt the marathon distance in training. Some seem to get away with long runs no longer than 20mi or so, while others go over-distance. My first thought is that even doing 26+mi once fairly slow in training would help to lower the mental barrier of the full distance.

In the build up - does that mean the period from now until January or after January or both? My take is that you can do a lot of what you have been doing from now until January, but should generally increase your volume during that period. I don't think you'll need the extra volume to hit 2:30, but I think it would be helpful should you ultimately shift your goal to something that comes closer to maxing you out on race day. From January on, the goal should be to get in as many miles as you can without materially increasing your risk of injury and without sacfrificng the quality of your workouts. I think you identify the workouts you intend to do and then build up the mileage around the workouts rather than identify the mileage you want and fit in the workouts the best you can. I wouldn't look at Karp's survey as the holy grail of marathon training. It is an interesting aggregation of self-reported data, but it comes from an atypical group and is self-reported, which raises questions about certain types of error.

I would not go over 22 or so. I just don't think enough benefit is there to justify the cost. Plus, the long runs with faster paced work may end up at only 22 miles, but those faster paced miles sort of stretch out the long run to make it feel like a longer effort. I would note that there is also a sub segment of the running world that emphasizes "time on your feet" during marathon training over mileage. So if you are gettting 2:30 doing 22 miles, that's plenty enough in their worldview to prepare you for 2:25-2:30 of marathon racing.