Has anyone ever done a study on why distance runners get faster times when racing (or being paced)?

LetsEatDoughnutsInstead wrote:

We all know the effect and Berega (along with the 7 other runners who broke 13) just demonstrated it. We also feel how much easier workouts (at similar paces) are when in a group.

Intuitively we all know it is psychological, but it would be interesting to see just what percentage of an athlete's personal best requires that psychological push. What is the absolute best Berega would do on a solo time trial? Would he do better in a solo time trial than if he ran with a bunch of 5k'ers paced at 13:30? Are the pacers the only reason Kipchoge got close to breaking 2 and the gigantic clock car and Formula One track had very little to do with it? Just curious if it has been formally looked at.

It definitely wasn't just psychological. Read a paper on the effects of drafting in running.

The effect is well understood in cycling because it makes a huge difference there, 40% less power used in the peleton compared to a lone rider (speeds are higher).

Barega had severely reduced wind resistance for 4800m. That's the primary reason he ran 12:43. That's also the primary reason Kipchoge ran 2:00:25

ex-runner wrote:

It definitely wasn't just psychological. Read a paper on the effects of drafting in running.

The effect is well understood in cycling because it makes a huge difference there, 40% less power used in the peleton compared to a lone rider (speeds are higher).

Barega had severely reduced wind resistance for 4800m. That's the primary reason he ran 12:43. That's also the primary reason Kipchoge ran 2:00:25

Umm, no the primary reason they ran fast was not drafting, that was the icing on the cake, not the cake.

old recipe wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

It definitely wasn't just psychological. Read a paper on the effects of drafting in running.

The effect is well understood in cycling because it makes a huge difference there, 40% less power used in the peleton compared to a lone rider (speeds are higher).

Barega had severely reduced wind resistance for 4800m. That's the primary reason he ran 12:43. That's also the primary reason Kipchoge ran 2:00:25

Umm, no the primary reason they ran fast was not drafting, that was the icing on the cake, not the cake.

I didn't say it was the reason they ran fast. I said it was the reason Barega ran 12:43. I'm sure he can run 12:50 without any drafting.

ex-runner wrote:

old recipe wrote:

Umm, no the primary reason they ran fast was not drafting, that was the icing on the cake, not the cake.

I didn't say it was the reason they ran fast. I said it was the reason Barega ran 12:43. I'm sure he can run 12:50 without any drafting.

Are you sure? My point was it would be nice to see some studies (which would be tough if not impossible to set up, I think). How much is it dependent on the person? How would you control for weather? Can this same effect be enabled using non-persons? Obviously it has some effect because if everybody was racing at their absolute best possible time in that moment, you wouldn't have a cluster of runners in one spot at all times on the track.

LetsEatDoughnutsInstead wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

I didn't say it was the reason they ran fast. I said it was the reason Barega ran 12:43. I'm sure he can run 12:50 without any drafting.

Are you sure? My point was it would be nice to see some studies (which would be tough if not impossible to set up, I think). How much is it dependent on the person? How would you control for weather? Can this same effect be enabled using non-persons? Obviously it has some effect because if everybody was racing at their absolute best possible time in that moment, you wouldn't have a cluster of runners in one spot at all times on the track.

They breakdown a physiology paper for easy reading in that article

Bullsh1t. Rudisha, in his WR race, led wire to wire. Would he have run 1:38 if someone was there to draft off of? And Bekele ran the 2nd half of his 10K record by himself.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

It definitely wasn't just psychological. Read a paper on the effects of drafting in running.

The effect is well understood in cycling because it makes a huge difference there, 40% less power used in the peleton compared to a lone rider (speeds are higher).

Barega had severely reduced wind resistance for 4800m. That's the primary reason he ran 12:43. That's also the primary reason Kipchoge ran 2:00:25

Bullsh1t. Rudisha, in his WR race, led wire to wire. Would he have run 1:38 if someone was there to draft off of? And Bekele ran the 2nd half of his 10K record by himself.

So you're saying that air resistance is bullshit? Me thinks one did not study engineering!

Very simply Rudisha could have run faster than 1:40.9 paced to 600m. Of course he could. That solo effort was astounding. Maybe another half second? 1:40.4 or so. The 800m is shorter so the effect is less pronounced.

The arousal effects of being in the Olympic final are extremely important, and that's part of the reason why we see crazy times in the Olympics (adrenaline etc). But have Amos take out that Olympic final in 48 with Rudisha hot on his heels, then Amos taps out at 600m for Rudisha to pass before the curve starts. 1:40 low is very doable.

And Bekeles solo efforts also show how much better he was than the current guys we have today.

LetsEatDoughnutsInstead wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

I didn't say it was the reason they ran fast. I said it was the reason Barega ran 12:43. I'm sure he can run 12:50 without any drafting.

Are you sure? My point was it would be nice to see some studies (which would be tough if not impossible to set up, I think). How much is it dependent on the person? How would you control for weather? Can this same effect be enabled using non-persons? Obviously it has some effect because if everybody was racing at their absolute best possible time in that moment, you wouldn't have a cluster of runners in one spot at all times on the track.

The effects of drafting in running have been studied countless times. It's not difficult to set up the conditions for a study that provides meaningful data on the subject. And you can confirm the effects of drafting on time-trial speed and finishing times by measuring rate of energy expenditure (as reflected in oxygen consumption) at various speeds under various aerodynamic, relative wind speed, and pressure conditions.

One subject that I haven't seen much discussion of is the effect of pacing on neuromuscular fatigue and running economy even after controlling for air resistance. When I was working long, stressful hours and getting little sleep, I often did my most intense training on treadmills, in part because I was (and still am) convinced that the task of running at a constant distance behind an object (whether the front panel of a treadmill or the body of a human pacer) is, as a neuromuscular matter, less complex and less fatiguing than the task of running at a specified speed without any assistance or cues from pacers, training partners, or similar sources of feedback.

Of course, none of this is to suggest that there aren't other "pschological" reasons that people tend to be able to produce faster times when they have special incentives to do so.

I wasn't questioning if drafting has an effect. I would predict that the psychology of running behind someone has a much larger impact. We have all experienced that extra push beyond what we thought was possible in our own races. Again, just a theory that would be interesting to see studied, if possible.

You can race yourself. Just look at the timer/your watch every lap

ex-runner wrote:

Barega had severely reduced wind resistance for 4800m. That's the primary reason he ran 12:43. That's also the primary reason Kipchoge ran 2:00:25

I love running 4.8km (4800)

It's the 1st time somebody other than me mentioned that distance

Magness wrote an interesting piece applying cognitive psychology research to drafting, arguing that reduced attention (mental) demands achieve greater physical endurance ("turn your mind off and go for a ride").

A lot of Alex Hutchinson's book "Endurance" is kinda about this issue...

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

A lot of Alex Hutchinson's book "Endurance" is kinda about this issue...

I'll pick it up sometime.

I realize there is an effect, as I think all of us do intuitively. I'm just curious if anybody has ever tried to qualify it.

*quantify

LetsEatDoughnutsInstead wrote:

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

A lot of Alex Hutchinson's book "Endurance" is kinda about this issue...

I'll pick it up sometime.

I realize there is an effect, as I think all of us do intuitively. I'm just curious if anybody has ever tried to qualify it.

Well yes, if you are sat on someone you less energy. It has been qualified.

80% of the energy expended overcoming wind resistance was removed when an athlete stayed within one meter of a pacer at mile pace according to the study I posted.

That's pretty qualified to me

How about in the case of the Rio Womens 10000m when the leader pulled everyone through to PB`s and NR times - this is an example of the psychological effect of follow the leader, without any physical drafting support,

Hill Run wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

It definitely wasn't just psychological. Read a paper on the effects of drafting in running.

The effect is well understood in cycling because it makes a huge difference there, 40% less power used in the peleton compared to a lone rider (speeds are higher).

Barega had severely reduced wind resistance for 4800m. That's the primary reason he ran 12:43. That's also the primary reason Kipchoge ran 2:00:25

How about in the case of the Rio Womens 10000m when the leader pulled everyone through to PB`s and NR times - this is an example of the psychological effect of follow the leader, without any physical drafting support,

I suppose it depends on your definition of psychological. The rest wanted to win the race also so they ran harder than they had demonstrated before.

The arousal levels of being in an Olympic final have a lot to do with that if we are talking about psychology.

The 10k is also an event where the runners rarely get an opportunity to run fast.

I definitely agree it's mentally 'easier' to just follow someone, but the OP mentioned Barega and in his case the physical drafting accounted for a lot more than just the psychology of the situation in my opinion. The rest of the field also benefitted from following the guy in front.

ya, that's about 13 flat which is one hell of a run, but no better and probably worse that moorcroft's near solo 13 flat.

going back to john walker's only proper stab at the WR when he was prime, the track was just OK and the pacing was terrible what 55 and a 60 then walker is solo the rest? that's really a 346 mile, and his 2000m record no pacing in the rain and wind, which is by far his greatest run ever, and really tells you of the potential of john walker, but so too Coe never ran a proper paced 1500, and he was 326 or 7 capable, and if all he did was work on 54 lap speed rather than 49 pace for the 8, with three pacers, he'd get that 325.