Training for a 50k followed by a marathon in 6 weeks

Train for it like a marathon and lose 50 ibs.

Start training for a 50K then get some inspiration in Advanced Marathoning by Pfitzinger & Douglas, chapter Multiple Marathoning to know how to handle the 6 weeks in between.

Caveat: I am not sure what 4k means (4 kilometres or 4000 feet). If it's the former, the first training segment will not be very specific to the marathon, for you will be training for a mountainous race (16% grade on average): hiking, hiking, some more hiking, and steep downhill running on technical terrain. It will give you muscular endurance and protect against post-race muscle soreness, that's all . If it's the latter it's a mostly runnable trail race (5% grade on average), so your long runs at race pace (~ 90-95% MP) will be specific to the marathon. In all cases, try to put some mid-week intervals at about MP to HMP and do work on downhill running for your first race!

loqueelvientoajuarez wrote:

Start training for a 50K then get some inspiration in Advanced Marathoning by Pfitzinger & Douglas, chapter Multiple Marathoning to know how to handle the 6 weeks in between.

Caveat: I am not sure what 4k means (4 kilometres or 4000 feet). If it's the former, the first training segment will not be very specific to the marathon, for you will be training for a mountainous race (16% grade on average): hiking, hiking, some more hiking, and steep downhill running on technical terrain. It will give you muscular endurance and protect against post-race muscle soreness, that's all . If it's the latter it's a mostly runnable trail race (5% grade on average), so your long runs at race pace (~ 90-95% MP) will be specific to the marathon. In all cases, try to put some mid-week intervals at about MP to HMP and do work on downhill running for your first race!

Yeah, sorry for the confusion there. It's 4000 ft. It's in west TN, so not terribly mountainous. I'll check out Advanced Marathoning for how to handle the interval period. Thanks for the suggestion.

By the way, a 1:31 HM indicates sub-3:20 almost certainly if you train correctly, all the more as the 50K will work on your endurance. If you do not push to hard on that trail race and recover well for the marathon you should easily reach your target.

I have the same question, only the marathon is a week after the 50K. I was planning on just training for the marathon. If I take the 50k really slowly, do you guys think I can run a marathon 7 days later?

You could use the ultra-base training (mainly lower intensity, aerobic endurance) to capitalize on the marathon training.

It would be much easier to do the road marathon first and then "transition up" to a runnable 50km though.

Really depends on the trails (how technical/muddy etc.) and 4,000' of climbing will take some hill work, but generally these two events correlate very well.

The good (easier) things with trail ultras is the much slower race pace and soft surfaces usually allow you to recover pretty quickly and not be as sore. That being said if you are out there for 4-5 hours in the heat, getting dehydrated and stumbling down the trail it will still beat you up. Transitioning back down to the road can be a little rough, but it's not like you're coming down from a 50-miler or 100km. Your heart and lungs and metabolism will be trained well. A road marathon will go by a lot faster too!

In the end if the surfaces are all runnable it is really about getting in consistent mileage/volume/time on feet and working the aerobic system. As well as having your hydration and fueling dialed. Good luck!

Hi, Sage! Thanks for the input. Nice to have an expert weight in. So assuming I spend most of the summer working at lower intensity and building volume while focusing on hydration and fueling, how much (if any) time should I spend at marathon pace or faster? Is there any utility in doing like 400's or 800's at 5k pace once a week or so? Or maybe just get some time at marathon pace on my long runs?

yes, there is some utility to that. Although I'd probably do more like 1km-1-mile repeats and it would be okay if they are closer to 10km pace (with a short rest though). Then also maybe some shorter, higher intensity hill repeats as well as "long hill climb Tempo/Uptempo " Runs in the 20-40-min range. Sometimes even cranking on a treadmill at 8-10% grade can be very good for that and gets you ready to climb in the ultra/trail races. That and hilly Long Runs.

I think Sage is onto something but I'd do it the other way around. 50K and a marathon is almost the same distance. If you have some trail experience already, like being sure-footed on trails, having strong-ish ankles, and so on, even if it's only from backpacking or hiking, I'd do at least one run a week on trails with enough running up and DOWN (more important) the trail to get your quads accustomed to downhill running which if you don't train is going to destroy your quads for at least a week, sometimes more.

Otherwise, do your marathon training, don't go crazy with speed work and track intervals, just focus on 3-4 quality runs in the range of 6-12 miles, one uptempo (or fartlek), the other 2-3 easy. One of these should be the enjoyable trail run with the mentioned above with uphills and downs thrown in, 10 miles long, or so, based how you feel. Alternate the distance so you recover properly between the runs. Plus, one weekly long run with your marathon pace segment in it. Basically, the long run of anywhere between 16-22 miles, start with lower mileage, increase gradually, with a segment of 10-16 miles inside at close to your target MP, or a little slower, i.e. +15 seconds. Don't go too crazy and long on these runs, max. 3 hours, or even better, limit them to under 2 and a half hours... Just RECOVER properly between all the runs. If you feel tired space out the long runs a little more, every 9-10 days rather than weekly. 50-60 miles weekly total, 4-5 runs, 5-8 hours a week. If you like trail running more, substitute one easy road run for a trail run, even if something super-easy, like a forest road... All this should prep you fairly decently for your trail ultra/marathon combo.

I did something similar, although the other way: I had a BQ marathon, followed by road 10K in a week, and 50M trail ultra with 8,000ft elevation change another week after. I did it all on marathon training only, more or less as described above. I ran almost 25 minutes below my BQ, PR-ed in 10K race and 'survived' the 50M ultra which I did easy but didn't have time to train for downhill running and my recovery was longer than expected. My quads needed 4-5 days to get rid of pain... I had to take it easy with only one run in the week after the ultra and only 2 easy runs, 8-10 miles each, in the week thereafter, and still raced well in a road half following 2 weeks after my ultra, with another almost 2 min. PR. I've been running for the past 18-19 months, so more or less, just like you, but I'm down to 165 lbs (Was 180 lbs when started running)...

Ramp up the mileage to 50-60 miles/week without getting injured, have variety of runs throughout the week, keep it simple, and most importantly RECOVER fully between runs, and you'll do it;) Btw, I'm gonna be 50 yo soon, so now you understand why I'm so obsessed with the recovery;) LOL... Good luck!!!

BTW, if you could lose 10-15 pounds, over time obviously, you could easily get down to at least 3:05-3:10 with your marathon time, based on what you are already achieving in shorter distances;)

There's a lot of great info in here. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

With regards to the weight, I'd like to lose 10-15 lbs, but I have a pretty large frame. I was in the mid 230's when I started running last year. Weight came off pretty easily until around 195, then it seemed like trying to restrict calories further just caused my running to suffer. Nagging aches and pains would come up and I didn't feel like I was recovering as well. I'm hoping that just increasing my mileage more over the summer will make another 10-15 lbs fall off without too much caloric restriction, but summer time is on the way and I'm a sucker for beer and BBQ.

fatbody wrote:

There's a lot of great info in here. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

With regards to the weight, I'd like to lose 10-15 lbs, but I have a pretty large frame. I was in the mid 230's when I started running last year. Weight came off pretty easily until around 195, then it seemed like trying to restrict calories further just caused my running to suffer. Nagging aches and pains would come up and I didn't feel like I was recovering as well. I'm hoping that just increasing my mileage more over the summer will make another 10-15 lbs fall off without too much caloric restriction, but summer time is on the way and I'm a sucker for beer and BBQ.

Understood, no worries. You know yourself, make sure you don't get too thin for trails, they can beat up your body pretty quickly... And yeah with beer, I understand, too, the greatest carbo loading there is... LOL