Road Racing and Training Thread. Week Ending May 13 2018

too hot wrote:

Diet B

What do you mean by base + 16 weeks?

A Lydiard cycle can be anywhere from 12 to 28 weeks including base. The longer the better in order to reap full benefits.

My guess is the 16 weeks he refers to is 4 hill, 4 anaerobic, 6 coordination, 2 taper, or thereabouts? So if one were to do that full progression, that would leave the remaining weeks (looks like 7) for the base phase.

But I'm curious what your thoughts/recommendations are here, too hot. I've been reading up on the Lydiard stuff extensively for the last 4 days (which is nothing, in the grand scheme of things, and I'm still only on page 50 of the mega-thread). Like Diet Bacon, I am pondering a marathon on 10/21. The breakdown I'm thinking would look something like this:

11 week base

4 week hills

8 weeks anaerobic/coordination/time trials > into the taper

But I'm much more of a beginner than Diet Bacon, and I'm pretty sure something like that would get me very fit. It'd certainly have me running more miles than I've ever run in that kind of time period.

Hey everyone! Jumping back into this thread after some time away. Training for the NYC Marathon this fall.

M- 6 easy

T- 7 w/ 5K tempo progression - 6:22, 6:13, 5:52 - 19:02 total

W- 5 miles easy

T- 4 miles easy

F- 5 miles w/ three sets 200-200-400, around 38 for the 200s and 80 for the 400s

S- 8 easy

S- 5 easy

Week total - 40 miles

Meanwhile, looking for a 1-1 coach (online is cool) and a running group in NYC. Anyone have any suggestions?

DietBacon wrote:

jewbacca: What made you start doing weights again? What kinds of exercises do you do? Just curious cause I'm trying to start lifting too.

Primarily because I think I'll see gains in running performance. I'm weaker than I've ever been. In 2011 I had arguably my best racing season after working hard manual labor for 2 years. In 2015 I made a feeble attempt at lifting and still felt like I was running faster earlier in my training cycle than I expected. A secondary goal is injury prevention.

I'm keeping it really simple: Squats, deadlift, chin-ups, and bench. In and out of the gym in less than 30 minutes. My deadlift form is atrocious, however. This is my first time doing it since HS.

Question for the group: Light weight/high reps or heavy weight/low reps? I've always heard the former for runners, but a couple of reputable sources have told me the latter does a better job making you strong without adding bulk.

My OT told me that if she could have me do any three exercises at the gym it would be squats, deadlifts and rows. The squats and deadlifts are obvious. The rows were because my posture is so horrendous that she thinks it impacts my running, preventing me from getting to my flutes since everything is so forward. So I'm doing those three things (except I'm using the leg press instead of squatting for now) and calf raises.

Something like what consistency said.

I only have Running to the Top from Lydiard. It has a Marathon plan which is 14 weeks + base, but I heard the one from the old book Run to the Top was stronger, so I found that online, as I couldn't find the book for sale. I'll paste it at the end of the post since it's very long.

Anyway, it ads up to 16 weeks + however many weeks you do base for, and I was wondering what would be the best way to shorten those 16 weeks so that I could do more than 7 weeks of base + mileage building, since I feel like I really need it.

I know you know a lot about lydiard training, too hot, so I'd really appreciate your advice.

Here's the plan:

For as long as possible

Monday: Aerobic 1 hour.


Tuesday: Aerobic 1 1⁄2 hours.

Wednesday: Easy fartlek 1 hour on hills.

Thursday: Aerobic 1 1⁄2 hours.

Friday: Jog I hour.


Saturday: Aerobic 2 hours or more.

Sunday: Aerobic 1 1⁄2 hours.

For four weeks

Monday: Hill springing/step or steep hill running 1 hour.

Tuesday: Aerobic 1 1⁄2 hours.


Wednesday: Time trial 5000m.


Thursday: Hill springing/step or steep hill running 1 hour.

Friday: Leg speed 100m x 10.

Saturday: Easy fartlek 1 hour.

Sunday: Aerobic 2 hours or more.

For four weeks

Monday: Repetitions 200m x 15-20.

Tuesday: Aerobic 1 1⁄2 hours.

Wednesday: Time trial 5000m.

Thursday: Easy fartlek 1 hour.

Friday: Leg speed 100m x 10.

Saturday: Time trial 10,000m.

Sunday: Aerobic 2 hours or more.

For two weeks

Monday: 100m windsprints every 200m x 10-12.

Tuesday: Aerobic 1 1⁄2 hours.


Wednesday: Time trial 5000m.


Thursday: Aerobic 1 1⁄2 hours.

Friday: Easy fartlek 1⁄2 hour.

Saturday: Time trial 25k.

Sunday: Jog 1 1⁄2 hours.

For one week

Monday: 100m windsprints every 200m x 10-12.

Tuesday: Aerobic 1 1⁄2 hours.


Wednesday: Time trial 3000m.


Thursday: Easy fartlek 1 hour.

Friday: Jog 1⁄2 hour. Saturday: Time trial 20k.

Sunday: Jog 1 1⁄2 hours.

For one week

Monday: 45m windsprints every100m x 20.

Tuesday: Easy fartlek 3⁄4 hour.


Wednesday: Jog 1 hour.


Thursday: Jog 1 hour.

Friday: Jog 1⁄2 hour.
Saturday: Time trial full marathon.

Sunday: Jog 1 hour.

For one week

Monday: Jog 1 hour.

Tuesday: Jog 1 hour.

Wednesday: Time tril 5000m.

Thursday: Jog 1 1⁄2 hours.

Friday: Jog 1 hour.

Saturday: Time trial 5000m.

Sunday: Jog 1 1⁄2 hours.

For one week

Monday: 100m windsprints every 200m x 10.

Tuesday: Aerobic 1 1⁄2 hours.


Wednesday: Time trial 3000m.


Thursday: Easy fartlek 1 hour.

Friday: Jog 1⁄2 hour.
Saturday: Time trial 10,000m.

Sunday: Jog 1 1⁄2 hours.

For one week

Monday: 45m windsprints every 100m x 20. T

uesday: Easy fartlek 1 hour.
Wednesday: Time trial 3000m.


Thursday: Jog 1 hour.

Friday: Jog 1⁄2 hour.

Saturday: Time trial 5000m.

Sunday: Jog 1 1⁄2 hours.

For one week

Monday: Easy fartlek 3⁄4 hour.

Tuesday: Time trial 2000m.

Wednesday: Jog 1 hour.

Thursday: Jog 1⁄2 hour.


Friday: Jog 1⁄2 hour or rest.

Saturday: MARATHON RACE.

Sunday: Jog 1 hour.

Link I got it from:

thinkaboutit wrote:

Hey everyone! Jumping back into this thread after some time away. Training for the NYC Marathon this fall.

M- 6 easy

T- 7 w/ 5K tempo progression - 6:22, 6:13, 5:52 - 19:02 total

W- 5 miles easy

T- 4 miles easy

F- 5 miles w/ three sets 200-200-400, around 38 for the 200s and 80 for the 400s

S- 8 easy

S- 5 easy

Week total - 40 miles

Meanwhile, looking for a 1-1 coach (online is cool) and a running group in NYC. Anyone have any suggestions?

Whoooaaaa is Thinkaboutit back from the ether?! Say it ain’t so!

Welcome back brother.

31 yo male - down to 168 pounds from last week. old prs of 4:45 mile, 17:45 5k, 38:20 10k, 1:24 half marathon, 3:09 full

-goals are to lose weight and run a 39:59 10k on 6/9/2018.

Sunday 4pm, 83 degrees - 7 miles at 7:30 pace. HR 151. felt pretty easy and smooth

Monday 5pm, 78 degrees, nicer weather, 9 miles total continuous (40 minutes up into 4 x 800 @10k pace w/ 400 jog and 15 or so down 68 minutes total, 7:30 avg). HR 152 avg. felt very easy.

Tuesday - 9pm - 70 degrees, very nice - 30 minutes at 7:30 pace. 145 HR. felt a little tired from yesterday's effort.

Wednesday - 6pm - 85 degrees, 31 minutes at 7:35 pace. felt sluggish. 148 HR.

Thursday -Noon - 85 degrees, 30 minutes at 7:20 pace. felt good.

- 5:45 pm - 85 degrees, 63 dew point - 4.1 miles on the track 30 minutes. last mile at 10k effort. &;53, 7:32, 7:22, 6:24.

-160 HR during second run. felt pretty tired.

Friday - 2pm - 30 minutes at 7:24 pace. 159 HR, felt pretty good.

- 8pm - 4 miles on the track in 29:45 153HR, feeling pretty tired.

Saturday - 8am- 5k with 3 mile warmup (15 minute recovery). 19:59 (166 HR). 10k effort. 75 w/65 dew point. Was sweating profusely after warmup.

-11pm - 30 minutes at 7:30 pace 145 HR, felt pretty good. tired legs. (to round out 50 miles for the week).

Today (sunday was extremely hot, but my daily 30 minutes felt pretty easy). I've now run 15 of the last 15 days. Starting to feel myself getting a little fit. (perpetually trying to get back into it).

Hi everyone!

My 10 sharpening is doing great and this week I had a pleasant surprise with a trail run on the weekend.

Monday: 45' at 5:15 min/km;

Tuesday: Rest.

Wednesday: 8x600 with 1'30 rest. This was awfully hard due to the short rest. I had something like 4 hours of sleep and the legs were tired but still pulled the workout! 25' of WU and 10' of CD.

Thursday: 40' at 5:00 min/km;

Friday: 35' at 5:30 min/km plus 4x100m strides;

Saturday: 20km Trail run in 2:03:44 and placed second in my age group (under 23)! Was nice to get away from the road for one bit. Watched the sunset at the beach in the middle of the race and just thought about why I run and why I get on the road every day. We surely are blessed to have found a sport that fulfills us to the maximum!

Sunday: Rest!

This week was nice. Something like 60km and one quality workout. I already have this next week planned and it is going to be so hard. One ladder workout (with shorter reps - 500, 400, 300) and one 2000+1500+1200+1000. My coach was clearly angry with me for some reason haha.

Allen: very nice week! Nice to see that you can withstand the high mileage without injuries!

TDR: nice 3rd overall race!

Smoove: Nice to see you upping the mileage and the pace! Always happy to see the strava logs.

Popping in after a long hiatus from this site and, generally, formal training. I had a baby last October and then started running when I could doing lots of trails and mountains, 30-40 mpw with 5-10k of vert. Seemed like I was building a good base because I was able to beat my local rivals by a much greater margin in a 4-miler in February than last summer. More recently I dropped mileage because of some family health concerns but I've still been getting into the 30s mileage-wise, mostly running in the heat of the day. Here in Tucson, AZ, the heat of the day means running with temps around 100 in the direct sun.

In January-March I was doing lots of tempo work but April was a bust and now I've 3 weeks out from a dual mile/5k race on June 2. For those that remember last year, it's the same set of races I ran after shifting down from ultra and trail running. At the time I was hoping to break 17 and break 5. As luck would have it I was neither in shape for it nor were conditions ripe since temps were in the 90s with a little wind. I ran 5:18 and 17:58, the mile being a big shock to my lungs and the next day 5K being a mental breakdown with splits like 5:30, 5:50, 5:55 (roughly)

This year I've shifted most of my training to mid-afternoon so the heat won't be a shock and I've adjusted my expectations to 17:30 and 5:10. And the races are on the same night. I was thinking of trying to get more 200/400 speed work at mile speed but I'm open to suggestions. I've really been light on speed work leading up to this race because it's just been a matter of "running when I can" without any sort of plan. If I had to pick a training bias, I would prefer breaking 5:00 in the race since it's an hour before the 5k, mile events are few and far between, and I can run a cool morning 5k in a few weeks (last year I ran 17:23 in a Father's Day run after my 17:58).

week (40 total)

M - 2+10 hot technical trail miles, 1500' climbing

T - 4 hot

W - 3 trail

T - 10 hot technical trail miles, 1500' climbing

F - off

S - 5

S - 4 in heat inc. 2x400, 800, 3x400 in 81/81/2:44/73/75/72

Whoa, a team1 sighting! Welcome back, my friend.

jewbacca wrote:

Question for the group: Light weight/high reps or heavy weight/low reps? I've always heard the former for runners, but a couple of reputable sources have told me the latter does a better job making you strong without adding bulk.

I get that high weight/low rep is probably the optimal way to go, but I think low weight is safer. No good injuring yourself doing supplemental training (best to injure yourself the right way!) Whatever you do, hard to add too much bulk when you’re running a lot.

I’ve been lazy about making it to the gym, but hoping to get back in the routine after this 10k. Usually do something like:

Bench (or dumbbell press, or military press)

Dips

Rows

Planks

Hip abducter machine

One-leg press

Bosu ball squats

This summer, hoping to do more with squats (front/back) and deadlift. Mostly thinking about injury prevention. May also incorporate some hill bounding (or just reps) next month.

TDR: That's a strong 5k! You seem on track for your upcoming goal race.

Allen: I'm taking today off, too. One of my off-season goals is to pay better attention to how I feel. I'll run everyday when I'm feeling good and take a day when I'm not. If you're feeling sluggish, well, maybe you ought to feel sluggish with the recent mileage high.

RRR: Seems like the relay exacted a price on you. Welcome back to your returning mojo.

consistency: Yes, time on feet! After all the Lydiard/daniels reading this week, I stopped to consider the number of hours these elites are training... without regard to how it's all structured... and in order to get those huge weeks of work in, they've got to be doing 12-15 hours. If I can do 10-12 during peak marathon training later this year/next year, I'm gonna make another step forward. Getting ready for that now.

StillImproving: Thanks for the HR numbers, though I don't know your max. Still interesting to see the :20/mile difference at the same HR Fri-Sat. You must have gotten it done on Thursday! As for the shoes, I always buy closeouts at this outlet place they have here and so I buy what they have. I go in with a variety of models in mind on a list and see how I do... I went in looking for the Freedom, but they didn't have any. I tried the Triumph vs the Zealot. I had been training in racers so the Zealot already felt luxurious. The Triumph (cushier than the Freedom, I understand), was very comfortable butI felt maybe too comfortable; my thought was "I could get used to a lot of bad habits in these." I'll likely buy a pair of Kinvaras for the fall.

R4F: Enjoy that 10 miler!

OR : Take care at high speeds in high temps!

GFMAH: Reading your week made me smile a bit... after the recent training style discussions and my background reading, I confess to secretly adding some "bounding" and "springing" (in very small doses...no need to rush this). Also trying to focus on staying tall, and in particular being as diligent as possible to recruit my bad leg on my easy runs... hard to explain, but I tend to "pivot" rather than push off... anyway, it's good to see how someone else is incorporating those drills.

Sub 6:00: 80 mile is a great place to be at the start of a marathon training cycle.

jewbaca: Is there a reason for the sudden jump to the gym?

above_average_joe: Yeah, run the course, not the watch. Looking at your PRs, I'm trying this year to get near where you were last year. I have a lot of work to do though.

Smoove: How did that "moderately hard" last mile feel? Fell like you're fully recovered?

DietBacon: 7 weeks of base, given that you're not that far off your previous marathon cycle, sounds reasonable. Are you going to try to get to Lydiard's 100 miles per week? Yes, my hills offer me endless training opportunity. I live at the foot of "mountains", but I'm also only a couple of miles from a river where I could run a straight flat marathon without any elevation at all. On Strava, I notice most of your runs are in the heart of Paris and along the Seine. I have not yet had the chance to visit Paris; do you have any hills available to you?

OK, now onto page two...

consistency /DB/too hot: This is too good. You guys would be finishing up a Lydiard cycle right around the time I need to make my training decision. I could learn a lot (he says, rubbing his hands together greedily). DB! Thanks for that link!

More later...

Another decent week, lower mileage than I would've liked owing to some fatigue creeping in at the end of the week, but still good all things considered.

Sunday Long 19.5 in 2:22 on very hilly trails (+1300ft from lowest to highest point)

Monday AM 7.5 moderate + 5x hill sprints PM 10.5 moderate

Tuesday AM 8 w 12x 400m on 200 jog, avg around 78 PM 6.5 moderate on treadmill

Wednesday PM 14.5 strong effort, miles 6-12 around 6:00 . Late PM : 4.5 slow treadmill

Thursday AM 5 slow + 4x hill sprint PM 11 moderate on treadmill

Friday AM Rest PM just shy of 8 with fartlek of 5, 4, 4, 4, 3 on with 2min jog in between.

Saturday 8 easy

Total : 102ish

The Friday workout was supposed to be 4 or 5 x 1600m w 400 jog rest, but after a 5:24 first rep and halfway through the next one i was told to evacuate the track for "liability" reasons (some kind of event going on, I guess). Anyways, a bit frustrating, but I tried to just finish up with a similar effort around campus.

I'm thinking of taking a down week and then putting in a block focused on developing aerobic power (this is Canova's terminology ; I haven't thought much about it but i suppose it maps to some degree onto the VO2 max work of Daniels ) as I prep for an 8k race at the end of June.

Today was a hard long run where I managed 18 around 6:10 ; three weeks ago on the same course I averaged 6:18. Weather may have been a bit better today, and I think my effort a bit stronger, but I think I was more spent after the slower effort. I'm going to try not to dissect what seems like good progress!

Happy running, all.

RRR- I'm excited for your pappy training and to see your progression through the summer into the fall.

GFMH- interested in doing some Canova style training. Have you been doing it long, and if so how long?

Jewbacca- I'll be switching from lower weight/high reps to high weight/low reps this week. 5 sets of 5. I only do 2 days at the gym. Alternate two lift days

1st day-squat, bench, bent over row (then I added 2 exercises each for bicep and chest)ab work.

2nd day-squat, deadlift, shoulder press (then added chin ups, and dips with weight or the dip machine, mostly the machine to push the weight. Will add 2 additional back exercises)ab work.

I do a third day at home of just bodyweight stuff. Pushups, squats/lunges, ab work.

Feel like I've lost a lot of strength since I haven't done high weight in over a year. I'm not sure if it the right thing for running improvements, but I'm so slow it shouldnt hurt me.

Easy week.

Lot of great weeks!

Recent marathon, 5/5: 3:31. Ugly second half

Su - off

M - off

T - off

W - off

Th - 1! with some drills

F - off

Sa - off

Su - 4.25, about an 8:15 pace

5.25 total

Six week base coming up. Then launching into a 17 week plan for Grand Rapids on 10/22.

Hey midwest guy,

I went back to last week's thread, but I didn't see what your marathon PR is. Sure likelier to be easier in October weather...

With everyone seemingly racing a marathon in October...there's a hilly marathon 10/28... Maybe I'll sign up and just run it without a specific marathon training cycle... just a drop a few 20s into the schedule end of Sept and beginning of October... Registration is already open... finished 24th overall last year... 7th AG... I could AG podium that mutha given my new status as an ancient one...

192 MaxHR. Comments to follow if I can manage...

I feel that my base wasn't very good for my last marathon though, and I've never actually done a proper base phase, that's why I wanted to get it done this time around. I'm probably not gonna do 100mpw, planning on closer to 80 or so, depending on how the body responds.

As for the hills, I live in probably the flattest part of Paris. In the last few days I've been running along the seine cause the sun there has been amazing and I can run shirtless, but I like running on the parks as well, and some of them actually have nice hills. Around where I live it's mostly flat and if I wanna do hills here I need to climb the Trocadero (1km away, where people take pics with the eiffel tower from) multiple times, but if I do longer runs I can run over to Parc de l'île Saint Germain (6km away) or Parc de Montsouris (4-5km away) to run a hillier terrain.

There are some other nice places with hills like Parc de St Cloud (10km away), Parc des Buttes Chaumont (6.5km away but through the city center, probably my favorite park in paris and it has insane hills), Bois de Vincennes (11km away where INSEP is, and the french teams train) or Montmartre (5km away through city center), but I have to take the metro to get to those.

5'6", 161 lbs, 27 next Tuesday, father of two

Monday: Off

Tuesday: 5 x 1 mile T w/ 1 minute. Ran them in 7:48, 7:42, 7:42, 7:36, 7:28. The goal was 7:42 so I took the first one a bit easy since I was sick for the last few days. Then I felt good and let it roll and went a bit faster on the last two. With a warm up and cool down it was 9 miles for the day. However, afterwards my outer part of my lower right leg hurt. So I must have been landing funky.

Wednesday: Off. I could feel whatever was hurt, my fibula probably, fairly often throughout the day.

Thursday: Attempted 6 x 1k w/ 400m jog. The goal pace was 7:05, so 4:24 per k. I hit the time on two of them, but my leg ended up hurting too much so I stopped and rested for like 10 minutes. Then went and jogged a like 3.5 miles to make it 7 for the day.

Friday: 6 miles easy on my treadmill in my Kayanos. I averaged about 10 minutes a mile and my leg didn't bother me too much. Only started really bugging me in the last 5 or so minutes.

Saturday: 8 miles easy on trails. Again, averaged like 10 minutes per mile. My leg weirdly felt worse. Maybe the changing elevation? Not sure what was up here.

Sunday: Off.

Total: 30

Glad to have hit 30 again since I've been kinda crap at it the last several weeks. However, I'm pulling the plug on the rest of the Daniels' 10k program and only doing easy running. I'm confident now that I have anterior shin splints in my right leg, which was caused by me not doing strides earlier in the training block and muscle weakness from being a lazy git for about 10 years. So I'm going to slowly work in some strength and strides over the next few weeks. I have a 5 miler in the second week of June, so we'll see where my fitness lies. Currently I'm ahead of where I expected to be, but we'll see if that changes without real workouts