Bringing it on home to a BQ - final weeks advice?

And eat better.

Probably not much else you can do.

And when miles 22 to 26 roll around, just hope for the best, I guess. :)

And I consider 3:10 (7:14 pace) to be BQ for 40-44. They should just make it official already.

IndyJ wrote:

I ran a 3:17 last November (Indianapolis) off of about 70-75 mpw the last 6-7 weeks pre-taper.

I'm running Kalamazoo on May 6. Male, 41 years old.

Last few (and upcoming) weeks:

64

72

72

80

Working on 72

Training Week

Training Week

Training Week

Taper

Taper Race Week

Today I ran 16 miles at right on MP, 7:15. I probably could have gone faster, but I'm nursing a bit of a sore hamstring this week.

Anyway, I'm wondering what I should do to make this time different than last time, when I was dead-on but faded after 22 miles to a 3:17. By this time in the fall, I had abandoned 15-18 mile mid-week runs like this at MP, though I kept doing weekly workouts (3x3 miles at 6:50-55). I think that might have been bad advice.

how many marathons have you done? just the 1?

it sounds like your MPW are in line and your pace above is right on. i like the 3x3 at 6:50 approach. i was at your speed for my first few marathons and found it took experience suffering in the 22-26 range before i was able to (eventually) dip into the 2:56-2:58 range for a few years. i really think it took (me at least) experience in those last miles to keep suffering and understand how to embrace the pain and not slack off at 22+.

Can you get your long runs up to 24+? i found that worked well for me. IMHO

if this is just your second marathon, you have a ton of improvements coming your way, if you can stick with it for a few years!

It's my seventh marathon, but really it's my third for these purposes:

2001 - 5:05

2002 - 4:55

2003 - 4:36

2004 - 4:22

2016 - 3:40

2017 - 3:17

2018 - ?

I can get my long runs to 24, definitely. I've been doing 22.

wow. that is impressive. good man. from 5:05 to 3:17 is serious change.

clearly you won't get those big improvements again but getting the long runs up may help.

how were the late miles in the early marathons? is it always those later miles for you? or has the whole world changed from a 5:05 to a 3:17?

also, do you do any track speed work? i also found when i was doing track at least once a week, my marathon pace improved.

alas i'm now off to the treadmill, snowy slippery mess out there today.....

IndyJ wrote:

And when miles 22 to 26 roll around, just hope for the best, I guess. :)

No. When miles 22-26 roll around, be prepared for the worst, embrace it, and run through it. The end is going to hurt when you're pushing your limits. Tell yourself this now. If you're hoping it doesn't hurt then you'll be more likely to quit when it does. Be mentally prepared for the pain.

Your training looks fine. Seems like 70-80mpw and 16 @ goal pace (controlled) should be good enough markers that you're fit. Make sure you eat and hydrate properly on race week and day and lean in to the hurt.

wrong mindset wrote:

IndyJ wrote:

And when miles 22 to 26 roll around, just hope for the best, I guess. :)

No. When miles 22-26 roll around, be prepared for the worst, embrace it, and run through it. The end is going to hurt when you're pushing your limits. Tell yourself this now. If you're hoping it doesn't hurt then you'll be more likely to quit when it does. Be mentally prepared for the pain.

Your training looks fine. Seems like 70-80mpw and 16 @ goal pace (controlled) should be good enough markers that you're fit. Make sure you eat and hydrate properly on race week and day and lean in to the hurt.

completely agreed.....

The mileage here is pretty solid and 16 at MP is typically a good indicator. Personally I'm not sure that 24 mile runs are needed, but if you've faded in the past it wouldn't hurt to throw in one 24 miler - maybe 4-5 weeks out from your race. I'd also do your last 20 miler three weeks out then 16-18 two weeks out; you should throw some fast miles into these runs too, don't just slog around. Alot of people like the 10 easy followed by 10 at MP three weeks out - another good indicator for some. Regarding taper a two week taper works for most, but I'd also slightly dial back the week before - maybe 64 miles or so. Just a few things to consider - good luck! And of course update and let us know how it goes...

Honestly, miles 22-26 don't have to suck. Youe mpw are too high for that to be happening. My guess would be that you don't have much of an aerobic base. Do you have extra weight to lose - five pounds would be pretty feasible. It's pretty obvious your threshold is high if you are doing 16 milers at goal pace. You need to drop the workouts and spend four weeks on nothing but aerobic running (145 heart rate or so). I would go 72, 80, 90, peak at 100. When you are running easy, you'd be surprised at how far you can go. Double some of the days to make it easier. I bet your hamstring starts to feel better too. The end stages of the race will feel much more comfortable for you with some additional aerobic capacity. Sharpen up with some short, faster stuff in the taper weeks. Let us know how it goes.

BTW I ran the same race in 3:19 down from 3:42 on 44 mpw average over 18 weeks - which was basically a few 60's sprinkled with some 30's and 40's, a 70 and bouncing off 100 once before taper, ALL aerobic miles. I ran a comfortable pace the entire way, same effort level I ran day in and day out, and crossed the finish line feeling alive and well (yes I left a few minutes out there).

Do some 0.5 mile pickups on the monon.

Looks good.

1. Don't screw up your taper by doing too much.

2. don't screw up your taper by just jogging around a little bit either.

3. On race day run a negative split. Trust yourself and your conditioning. Do NOT try to bank time. Don't let your friends or the excitement of the race pull you out too quick.

hobblejogger wrote:

Honestly, miles 22-26 don't have to suck.

They do if you want to wring every bit of juice out of that orange.

By your account you ran several 60 weeks, a 70, and a 100 mile week and only averaged 44mpw??? So if we assume four 60s is “a few,” then the other 12 weeks you only averaged 32mpw? Did you just wreck yourself so bad on the high weeks it took you 2 weeks to recover, then you said “let’s do that again”? That’s a nonsensical training plan. There is no magic to hitting 100mpw. Consistent moderately high mileage is so much more beneficial than climbing to 100 once for the sake of 100. Not to mention, the OP has already made the jump from 3:4x to 3:teens….your input isn’t helping him get to the next step. The OP isn’t asking how to finish a marathon comfortably. He could do that tomorrow if he wanted to jog 26.2 miles. He’s asking how to get to 3:10. Pros run 130mpw average...ask Shalane if the last few miles at NYC still hurt.

I do agree with EZ10Miler about not going out too fast. That or getting hurt are probably the two biggest mistakes the OP could make in the time he has left.

OP here. I'm really good at not going out too fast. I was turning 7:14, 7:14, 7:14 ... over and over again in November, with an occasional 7:10 or 7:20 tossed in there if things were downhill or uphill or whatever.

It makes me wonder whether I didn't do enough of the 15-18 mile runs at MP the last few weeks. A friend warned me off of them, and I listened.

Honestly, I think 10-13 miles at MP is plenty...it can be part of a 15-18 mile run, but 15-18 miles at MP midweek seems like a pretty hefty workout to do week in and week out. For example, Hansons book plans do 10 miles in a 13-15 mile run (easy warm up and cool down) all the way up to 10 days out from the race. So, you can continue working in that volume and pace, but I don't think they need to be all MP. Did you just cut them out altogether last time? what did you do on those days instead?

wrong mindset wrote:

Honestly, I think 10-13 miles at MP is plenty...it can be part of a 15-18 mile run, but 15-18 miles at MP midweek seems like a pretty hefty workout to do week in and week out. For example, Hansons book plans do 10 miles in a 13-15 mile run (easy warm up and cool down) all the way up to 10 days out from the race. So, you can continue working in that volume and pace, but I don't think they need to be all MP. Did you just cut them out altogether last time? what did you do on those days instead?

I did a workout once a week - 3x3 or 4x2 at around 6:50 - and then a lot of 10-13 mike runs at 8:00 or so.

yeah - i would strongly consider mixing marathon pace back in on a weekly basis somewhere - either in one of those 13 mile runs or for some of the miles during your long runs. you don't want to over do it and you certainly don't need to be doing it for 15-18 miles or for even a whole 13 mile run, but you do want the pace to feel familiar and comfortable, and the time this is most important (I think) is closer to the event.

IndyJ wrote:

wrong mindset wrote:

Honestly, I think 10-13 miles at MP is plenty...it can be part of a 15-18 mile run, but 15-18 miles at MP midweek seems like a pretty hefty workout to do week in and week out. For example, Hansons book plans do 10 miles in a 13-15 mile run (easy warm up and cool down) all the way up to 10 days out from the race. So, you can continue working in that volume and pace, but I don't think they need to be all MP. Did you just cut them out altogether last time? what did you do on those days instead?

I did a workout once a week - 3x3 or 4x2 at around 6:50 - and then a lot of 10-13 mike runs at 8:00 or so.

Keep the workouts once a week - typically intervals where you're running faster than MP. Also, nothing wrong with running the easy days at 8:00-8:30 pace - I know 2:40 marathoners that run 8:00 miles on easy days. Another thought is two weeks out you could hit 12-13 miles at MP. This would be your long run, 2E-12MP-3E for 17 total.