Jonathan Marcus Declares That Threshold Training “Doesn’t Work Well” For Distance Runners

It doesn't work for me, but I always thought I was an anomaly. Good to hear that there is some science behind it.

Different training works for different people. Exercise science continues to lag far behind actual, observed effects from unscientific coaching. The podcast mentions threshold training as not working particularly well for nordic skiing. Nordic skiers invented threshold training. Jakob Ingebrigsten does more training than almost any other elite. Marius Bakken did a lot of work at just sub-tempo.

He mentions Kenyan runners as doing polarized training. Anyone look at Kipchoge's training log? He does work from 3k effort up to above marathon effort. He doesn't do straight threshold, but he touches on every pace.

Anyway, Jonathon Marcus posts a bunch of workouts of the day. Many of them, from elite runners, are tempo miles, or miles at threshold effort. These are elite runners. Doing threshold training. Which Marcus posts. Hard to see why he could say it doesn't work well for distance runners. The 90s in America proved that not doing threshold works awfully.

Massively contradictory BS. He must not know who any elite athletes are.

If you listen to the podcast linked Stephen makes some interesting claims. I believe the claims are definitely biased towards a researcher/scientist point of view.

at ~19:30 he says something along the lines of "If you look at the total distribution of intensity 80% of their (Elite Kenyan Marathoners) volumes are low intensity and the rest is faster than marathon pace". But we know based on the actual logs of marathoners that Renato has posted that the FOCAL POINT of his training is the long/fast run very close to marathon intensity/pace.

I don't know the answer but something does not line up.

It makes me think Jon Marcus is an idiot.

Ask Jenny Simpson if she does threshold training.

Seiler says he loves cross fit. That is some insight into his level of intelligence or expertise.

Jon Marcus is going to say things to try to get attention. He is trying to create a business from being an "expert" himself, except he doesn't know much and hasn't accomplished anything. Good luck to him on that.

I think the "Threshold doesn't work is probably somewhat clickbait. I'll have to listen. Seiler started frm a threshhold training paradigm in the '0s.

This isn't contradictory. A high volume of easy running SUPPORTS the key workouts which are the "focal point" of the training week.

Eliud's training is consistent with 80/20. In fact nearly half his running is quite easy (7:00 or even easier compared to sub-4:40 marathon pace). Keep in mind that this log is for the most intense training prior to Sub-2 attempt:

http://www.sweatelite.co/eliud-kipchoge-full-training-log-leading-marathon-world-record-attempt/

I have used Seiler's principles since he published them online back in the mid-90's, in conjunction with multi-paced training and Lydiard-style peaking. It has helped keep me and my athletes injury-free and appropriately challenged throughout the training cycle. Sh!t works. The main thing is to do a wide variety of paces throughout hte year with a high volume of easy running to support the faster training.

Seiler's podcast is a great listen as always but I was floored by his mention that his daughter began running last summer (after 10 years as a pro dancer), and she is already running 36-high for 10K...WTF??

YMMV wrote:

Eliud's training is consistent with 80/20. In fact nearly half his running is quite easy (7:00 or even easier compared to sub-4:40 marathon pace). Keep in mind that this log is for the most intense training prior to Sub-2 attempt:

Basically all of his runs on that log were sub 6:30 pace(4/km), with the majority of runs quite a bit faster. This was also at 8,000 ft, most likely on hilly, dirt trails. I don't get why people always want to play up the idea that Kipghoge runs a bunch of extremely slow miles. The guys can obviously accomplish active recovery at a relatively high velocity.

and what have JMAR's athletes accomplished in the last 8 years since he learned that?

If you look at Seiler's model - Zone 4 training - which is in the high intensity 20% piece of his pie, lies squarely in the 60 minute pace threshold zone.

JMAR should do the work required to have an opinion.

Not the first stupid thing he has said

Actually JMAR is so annoying with his BS that I muted him long time ago on Twitter

Do ! Not! Trust! Training! Logs! From! Sweat Elite!

We didn’t do threshold runs in the 90’s. Instead were light on mileage (“too much leads to injury”) and heavy on the intervals.

We weren’t so good back then.

After college tempo runs were back and I improved a ton. I’m a fan.

Has he also declared that Jonathan Marcus doesn't work well for distance runners? Because that's absolutely true, if uncontroversial.

I actually created a thread this morning about how JMar can give off a bad vibe but it got deleted for some reason.

I think Jonathan will learn about something new and then that's all he will tweet about for weeks. For a while it was strength training, and then it was sprinting, and then it was fascia, and now he seems to be going on and on about plyometrics.

https://twitter.com/jmarpdx/status/1284488766229409792?s=20

In this tweet he says to incorporate more plyometric training before adding slow running and then cites a study. He makes these claims with so much certainty that it is hard to trust him. I went and read the study and the researchers say that a plyometric program should be incorporated into endurance programs HOWEVER there were issues with the study such as the length (6 weeks) and the limited number of exercises performed. The study also never mentions easy running. I think he tries to go for a "gotcha moment", tries to catch people off guard and make them feel stupid for not knowing as much as he does.

For example, he had that tweet from a while back that said doing fast 200s after a tempo was useless. Maybe it's not intentional but it sure does come off that he thinks he's better than everyone else.

His podcasts are like that too. Constantly interrupting the guest to bring up his own opinions along with Steve Magness. They always seem to ask very few questions and talk about their own philosophies rather than letting the guest explain theirs. I listened to a podcast with Mike Smith and he was talking maybe 20 percent of the time

Magness and this guy have a lot in common in that they talk a lot but their coaching CVs are blank sheets of paper.

free shipping with purchase wrote:

Magness and this guy have a lot in common in that they talk a lot but their coaching CVs are blank sheets of paper.

Yup. Jonathan Marcus has never produced a runner who had a single result worth mentioning.

I think Jonathan Marcus's problem is he wants to be a contrarian. He wants to go against what is accepted, find some radically new training method, and be remembered. But in doing so he just goes contrarian to things that work and have been proven to work many times. So he ends up with the absolute dumbest garbage coming out of his mouth.

Also, Magness? The doper steve magness? Same guy?