3 girls run 16:50s at Benzie Invitational in Michigan

Forsyth is legit, with a 4:23 1500 PR and 2nd at NBON. The other girls are low-4:50's in track and obviously fit.

Michigan girls rock wrote:

I've never seen this before. 3 Michigan high school girls went sub 17 today in the same early season invitational. In fact, only 1 girl in Michigan has gone sub 17 over the last dozen years or so - Meagan Goetheals at the 2009 Div. I state meet. Before you say the course was short, the results for the boys and the small school girls were about what you would expect and in line with prior years. The course is flat and fast and conditions were great. Footlocker should be interesting this year. Link to results.

https://www.athletic.net/CrossCountry/Results/Meet.aspx?Meet=129731

I hope the course was not short this year but it is troubling that about half the runners had PRs this year while looking back at the prior 3 years there were few PRs. I know Portage had a high number of PRs a few years ago when I was there but I thought the temperature and the running surface that year was about as perfect as one could get compared to prior years when I was there. Portage is in the middle of the season and one of the most competitive fields of runners during the season so PRs are expected but seeing half the field of runners PR in the first meet of the season is incredible if not unbelievable. While some runners may get good training in during the summer and have huge PRs at the first meet we know that many will run much less if anything during the summer. We will see how these runners do throughout the season. I would hate for these to be their fastest races of the season. Lets get these three girls and a few others in the MITS 5000 meter race at SVSU and the outdoor 5000 at Gina Relays.

I hope the course was not short this year but it is troubling that about half the runners had PRs this year while looking back at the prior 3 years there were few PRs. I know Portage had a high number of PRs a few years ago when I was there but I thought the temperature and the running surface that year was about as perfect as one could get compared to prior years when I was there. Portage is in the middle of the season and one of the most competitive fields of runners during the season so PRs are expected but seeing half the field of runners PR in the first meet of the season is incredible if not unbelievable. While some runners may get good training in during the summer and have huge PRs at the first meet we know that many will run much less if anything during the summer. We will see how these runners do throughout the season. I would hate for these to be their fastest races of the season. Lets get these three girls and a few others in the MITS 5000 meter race at SVSU and the outdoor 5000 at Gina Relays.[/quote]

You can't really go by the PR notation listed on athletic.net for the prior years. A lot of those times were PRs at the time they were run but were later broken and the PR notation removed. A fair number of my kids will run PRs at Benzie if they come into the season in shape but we haven't had a problem beating those times later in the season.

Who cares if the course was short? When they race the 800, 1600, and 3200m in Spring we will all know how "fast" they are.

When I was a freshman, I ran 4:50 for 1600m and the next Fall ran 16:40 for 5k on a legit course (also in Michigan), although it happened later (in late October). But I had a 16:40, 16:52, and 16:57 ... so it can be done. These were courses that were slower than the speedway at MIS, this was 10 years before moving the State races to MIS.

Now, I am male, and I ran 60-70 mpw over that Summer, but it doesn't matter if these were "real" sub-17s or not ... we will see soon enough.

The ghost of Pat Davey wrote:

Who cares if the course was short? When they race the 800, 1600, and 3200m in Spring we will all know how "fast" they are.

When I was a freshman, I ran 4:50 for 1600m and the next Fall ran 16:40 for 5k on a legit course (also in Michigan), although it happened later (in late October). But I had a 16:40, 16:52, and 16:57 ... so it can be done. These were courses that were slower than the speedway at MIS, this was 10 years before moving the State races to MIS.

Now, I am male, and I ran 60-70 mpw over that Summer, but it doesn't matter if these were "real" sub-17s or not ... we will see soon enough.

Who cares? All these kids who think they ran big PRs but don't come close the rest of the year and have a huge letdown.

When I was coaching, had this happen and it's a big problem. Typically the kids get motivated as they improve ... but when every subsequent race is slower, they get demoralized.

Kids hate to let go of that big PR and accept that the course was short.

Have been there before and wheeled it pretty close. A coach there this year said he had 4915 with the wheel doing tangents and then had 3.02 on his garmin running the open.

So maybe 30 seconds fast. Conditions were absolutely perfect yesterday, I figured with the girls that were there they would have a shot at breaking 17 and they didn't disappoint.

All 3 are legit, plus 4th place is a stud as well.

Wow, very good ... Ackley's been impressive the past few years, but haven't heard of the 3rd place girl.

Also, conditions were very cool yesterday (50s in a.m., high of 70-ish) and probably low wind and dry, so course probably ran as fast as it possibly could.

There's a lot of fast girls in Michigan, including 10:14 2M runner Olivia Theis, low 17s (track) 5k runner Kayla Windemuller (sp?) and several others. Recent years have also included Erin Finn (16:18 on track in HS) and loads of others.

3rd place girl had the course record of 17:21 from last year when it was raining all day.

THIS COURSE IS NOT SHORT -- IT HAS BEEN MEASURED AND RE-MEASURED MULTIPLE TIMES BY A COACH WHO KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING.

You or your kid must have had a good PR yesterday?

Of course, fast times in August have little to do with fast times in late November. But that said, don't be surprised if Michigan has at least 3 female Foot Locker Finalists and/or very high NXN finishers this coming fall. Theis could be the best one. Coached by a 4-minute miler at a school in Lansing.

I'd give forsyth the nod over theis right now, but theis is certainly solid. Michigan is pretty loaded right now on the girls side.

Indoor? wrote:

A coach there this year said he had 4915 with the wheel doing tangents

That's the problem with wheels, they wobble and are hard to keep going straight.

Therefore the course was shorter than 4915 meters.

SpartanState wrote:

Of course, fast times in August have little to do with fast times in late November. But that said, don't be surprised if Michigan has at least 3 female Foot Locker Finalists and/or very high NXN finishers this coming fall. Theis could be the best one. Coached by a 4-minute miler at a school in Lansing.

The way I look at my race results at as a 50+ year old runner and the results of high school and collegiate runners is that what one ran yesterday may be great and deserve congratulations but what is more important is how does run do in the next race. After a few more competitive races we will know more about how good these and other Michigan runners are this season. Hopefully they can repeat or improve and also stay healthy enough to the end of the season so they may have great races at the state championship, NXN, and Foot Locker. I always thought Michigan had a lot of talented high school and collegiate runners. Now hopefully the rest of the nation will begin to agree.

16:50s is in line with their 3200 PRs from last spring so maybe not such a big surprise on a course that is track fast. I doubt if the course is 30 seconds short, they are just that good.

This is why coaches don't pay attention to XC times. They are meaningless.

Unless you are running the same fire trail carved out who knows if the flags/cones are in the same place.

Running this fast in August on an unverified course is meaningless. They going to run 15's in December? Say they do get to Balboa Park, my guess is they have a hard time breaking 18.

Sielle Kearney (3rd place) and now a senior is very legit with range from a 2:14 800 to a 10:32 3200. A great race between three elite runners.

H. Harvey wrote:

Say they do get to Balboa Park, my guess is they have a hard time breaking 18.

Forsyth ran 17:46 there last year.

Regardless the course length, these 3 girls are legit.

Unless its FLNC, NXN or a well known course, college coaches don't put much stock in XC PRs because of variation in courses and weather. The variation between a flat straight course on a cool day came be as much a 2-minues versus a hilly, croaked course of a hot day. Also, in terms of distance, even an accurately measured course can run long or short if the kids aren't running the exact line. Championship courses are usually created in such a way that athletes are forced to run the line. There is no such thing as a XC scholarship, starting point for getting noticed is running sub-2:15 800, sub-5, mile and sub-11 2-mile. With that said, for the first meet of the season, 16:50 and any XC course that's even close to 3.1 is very fast and even more impressive having 3 girls from the same state.