My Journey From a 17:30 5K to a 15:30K. Follow along, contribute, bash, or just ignore.

Summers are tough.

Are you restoring electrolytes and not just fluids after your runs? Especially living in Florida, by the end of each summer, I feel like a wrung out dishrag. The only way I get through it is by way of a ton of salt intake and lots of sports recovery drinks (which I otherwise try to avoid). When marathon training in warmer weather, I go with salt tablets during my runs. I used to make fun of the triathletes who focused on things like that, but I have to say that taking in the tablets on long runs during the summer makes me less of a walking zombie the rest of the day and makes me feel much more recovered.

Also, what about your sleep? Sometimes, especially up north when the days are longer, we end up sleeping less in the summer and that can have a big impact.

Another thought: you picked up your workload a bit; did your calorie intake go up too? Were you maintaining your weight, or did you see a drop?

Finally, can you have any blood work done? Maybe you are suffering from some vitamin or iron deficiency?

I do think you are taking the right approach of backing off a bit until your body feels right. And I think the hill sprints are a good idea too since they are hard, but are less intense that track sessions while still giving you much of the same payoff.

Good luck and keep us informed.

I was beginning to suspect hydration and/or nutrition to be the culprit here as well but after a whole week of replenishing my stores (and gaining a few pounds) it just doesn't make sense that I would feel so shitty on fresh legs. Maybe getting some bloodwork done is the way to go. Sleep improved over the last week as soon as I backed down from workouts. I've trained in Florida weather since I was a kid and there's no question it sucks.

No, I disagree. I live in Florida and I put in about 600-700 miles from June 1st to August 1st. The way to improve is in the fall you just cut down to around 20-30 miles and just use the heat to do fast intervals. It is proven hot weather helps you to run incredibly fast for sprints. Things like 10x400, 12x400, 4x800, all workouts that can truly help you run your best 5k. Come 50-60 degree weather in December, hop in a winter run or Christmas run and do your best. Every year I run the SeaWorld 3 mile run and I went from running 18:00 3 mile tempo runs to 16:56 just between these dates.

I live near you and I train normally through the summer, including long vo2max intervals and 60 mile weeks (even having gone up to 100). But I've been doing it for a few years. For someone who isn't adapted to increased training at this time of year, chronic depletion might be the issue. But for someone who has done it before, there's no reason to not train normally.

Last 13 days

OFF

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5 miles very slow

6 miles very slow

3 miles + 8 x 100m strides

10 miles very slow

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6 miles + 4 x 100m strides

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10 miles very slow

OFF

Since my last update, not much has improved. I slowed down my pace to see if I could get my legs back. Some days are better than others but generally speaking it's just not there. Legs feel heavy, especially the quads.

I've gone back to work and as a PE teacher I'm on my feet all day exercising with the kids so I can't believe that's helping either.

Since I'm not running any workouts, I was hoping to pick up the pace a little on a few runs and go by feel but going any faster than 8:45/mile is a chore and it feels like I'm pushing too hard.

Do you feel flat or tired?

Get some blood work done... anemia panel (serum Ferritin) and the normal. It doesn't seem right that you're completely zapped by summer workouts.

Jeremy R wrote:

Do you feel flat or tired?

I asked myself the same thing. But it's weird. I'm not tired in the sense of being lethargic or lacking energy for everyday activities. My blood sugar is very stable, it seems. It's just my legs, particularly my legs. They are DEAD and have been for a while. Maybe I should get some blood work done.

It seems like you have taken enough rest. Maybe you feel flat. If that's the case, you might need some muscle tension back in the legs, which you can get back by doing some sprints or plyos (taken from Steve Magness philosophy)

Last 3 weeks update

Between the start of a new school year, my wife's 30th birthday, a one-week trip to celebrate, and dealing with symptoms of overtraining...I haven't put in much noteworthy training. I will say, though, that after taking about 7 days in a row completely OFF and being forced to rest during the effects of Hurricane Irma, I was feeling much better. The legs came back to normal for a while.

I calculated mileage totals for July and August. Just a 38 mpw AVERAGE for July and down to 30mpw for August. Peaked at 50 miles in August for a very short stretch of time.

This gives me hope that I have a lot of room for improvement just by increasing overall mileage. The challenge is trying to recover from a a job that is very physically demanding during the day and perhaps trying to do something I've never done before. Running before 6am on a regular basis.

But while I've been re-configuring an approach to training that is vastly different from what I posted on page 1 of this thread not too long ago, I think I may have stumbled accidentally across something that works for me. Steady, moderate pace running (between marathon pace and MP + 1 minute) with injections of speed at the end of these efforts but in very limited doses so that I can touch on some faster paces about 2-3 times a week.

Right now I'm trying to figure out how I can simply recover from day to day without any speed work. I may sound like a p*ssy but honestly it's very hard for me to juggle a physically demanding job (PE teacher K-5) and be a good husband at home which I value above everything else including running.

If running before 6am, that means waking 30 to 45 minutes before that, so your problem might become sleep deprivation if you're not getting early nights. You're in a pretty stressful life situation (physical job etc) so your best bet is to have a training plan (overall mileage etc) that you know you can achieve. This might be one hour/day Monday to Friday, rest Saturday, two hours Sunday.

I like the idea of touching on different paces during the morning runs. Also perhaps, one day of short intervals, one day of longer intervals by feel in the Monday to Friday runs? Keeping in mind that you're not going to be at your best for faster work that early in the morning.

How much time can you spare in the afternoons? I might have a few ideas for you.

Also, can you remind us of your prs? When were these set and what kind of training got you there?

I can train for up to 2 hours in the afternoons. Although right now I'm only running for about 45 minutes to an hour at 7:40-8:00 pace. Today I tacked on 1000m at 5:57 pace. But I tend to break down with too much interval work.

PRs we're set back in 2011

16:05, 33:45, 1:14

Back then, in my early to mid 20s, I was running about 50-70 miles per week with two hard workouts and a 15 + mile long run. The hard workouts were a tempo run and repeats on the track.

If you were truly serious about this, you would have gotten blood work done a month ago. Every "easy" week you put in is just going to mask the issue more and more, by bringing what was likely Serum Ferritin numbers that were in the tank, to ones that are a bit on the low side, but workable. You'll start being able to do decent training in a few more weeks, crank things up for a month or two, and then be back where you were a month ago, with nothing left. I've seen enough athletes develop iron deficiencies over the years to think what you're describing is that. Distance runners don't just run their legs so hard they randomly stop working the way they did, they run so much they've changed their physiology, preventing their legs from working the way they did. Most often that's a nutrient deficiency, most often that deficiency is iron (unless its a more short-term electrolyte of hydration problem).

Also, crappy as it may be, get your running in before work. If you had an office job, training afterwards would be no big deal, but going on runs after 6-8 hours on your feet and being active is going to have you training at significantly slower paces for equal effort if you did it in the morning. You'll adapt much easier to getting through a day of work after a tough run than vice versa, just save your biggest day of the week for saturday or sunday (whichever drains you most, long run, tempo, or speed work).

Thank you for the advice. You're probably right. Admittedly, I put off getting a blood test because I did not want to make the problem worse. It may sound stupid, but in the past I have found that training suffers for a few weeks after a blood test. Not sure why. I have been through this before and the results always come back normal but that doesn't mean I can't be anemic right now.

before, switch some things up. add some treadmill running, some two a days, but all easy running until your body has absorbed your current level.

Here is what I would do:

Get a blood test completed. Make sure you aren't deficient with your iron or that you do not have something like mono. If the results are fine then, find a good weather day in early October, now that you are running again, and jump into no-pressure 5k race just to see where you are from a fitness prospective. You have to know the truth in order to assess fitness and train accordingly.

Then, google Tom Schwartz (Tinman) and his 3-day rotation where he ran only 5 miles per day (easy, medium, somewhat hard) and use that as a template for your training going forward. It is simple and it works when "life" happens. The hardest part about the plan is being consistent and having self-disciple and restraint.

Easy = current day's 5k pace plus 2:00 - 2:30 / mile - just go easy

Medium = 1 mile easy, then current day's 5k pace plus 1:30 down to 1:00/ mile by the end. 4 x 100m strides at 1500m effort at the end. 1 mile easy

Somewhat hard = 1 mile easy, then either a, b, or c (below), followed by 4 x 30 sec hills at 800m race effort (or flat 150-200's if you are in Florida), followed by 4 x 50m at 400m race effort, 1 mile easy

A) 3 x 1 mile at current day's 5k race pace + 25 sec / mile

B) 4 x 1000m at current day's 5k race pace + 15 sec / mile

C) 3 mile progression run starting at current day's 5k race pace + 50 sec / mile, working down to 5k + 30's / mile by the end.

When you get through the first easy, medium, hard cycle, go back to easy and start the 3-day rotation all over again. This routine is not physically or mentally demanding, but it gets results. It is only 35 mpw of running but can get you to your goal without killing yourself in training. Best of all, you will begin to "feel" the efforts after a few weeks and not need the watch. Jump into a 5k once every 3 weeks to see where you are and how your fitness is improving.

Current day's 5k Pace = What you could run TODAY in your current shoes,

current terrain, current weather, etc. (i.e. not PR pace, not goal pace and not the pace you should be able to run if x, y, z)

Last thing - I would recommend running in the afternoons and adjust your efforts according instead of trying to cram it in before work. My opinion.

Good luck!

One thing that really helped me when i prd last year was xtraining mwf for about 45m-1hr. It add ed a lot and helped recovery because im off my legs.

Thank you jman. Good stuff.

I first heard about Tinman on these boards in the context of "critical velocity" but I did not know about this 3-day rotation.

I like the spectrum of paces and the relatively low time commitment. If my body would allow it, I would love to train at higher mileage.

My question is this - How important is it to do 3 x 1 mile or 4 x 1000m? What I've been doing lately is running just ONE REP at those paces about twice a week, not including the strides, sprints, and hill sprints which don't seem to impact recovery time for me.. This allows me to touch on that speed and feel relaxed throughout. It doesn't leave me trashed for the next day.