Is Said Aouita the greatest 800m to 10000m runner ever?

@said88 - no, because the Australian coaching scandal has robbed his career of any legitimacy.

Yes, he seems to have had the greatest range. If you believe he was a drug cheat then why not believe his contemporaries were as well.

Mary Decker. 1:56 & 31:35

Alan Webb had better 800-1000m PRs.

dbags wrote:

Alan Webb had better 800-1000m PRs.

what about the other 9000m?

dbags wrote:

Alan Webb had better 800-1000m PRs.

not correct

Coach wrote:

Yes, he seems to have had the greatest range. If you believe he was a drug cheat then why not believe his contemporaries were as well.

Err..because there is a weight of evidence he doped and zero evidence his 800/1500 rivals did? I sincerely hope you're not a coach of anay significance.

Yes. And Ben Johmson is the greayest sprinter ever and Lance Armstrong the greatest cyclist.

O. Schniederjans wrote:

Aouita won medals in the major international championships from the 800m, 1500m, 3000m and 5000m.

He is the only man in history to run the 800 m under 1:44, the 1500 m under 3:30, the 3000 m under 7:30 and the 5000 m under 13:00.

Also beat Alberto Cova over 10000m and has a PB under 27:30 and even ran the 3000m steeplechase at an international level.

Does anyone even come close to his achievements post-war?

Geb: 3,31 indoor (he was very close to El G who set the still standing indoor WR in that race. On all longer distances, Geb has better PB´s.

dbags wrote:

Alan Webb had better 800-1000m PRs.

Unless you did mean 800m to 1000m... but...

Aouita has faster PBs for every distance besides the 800m which he is 2 hundredths slower than Webb.

Also Webb did not medal in a major international championship.

O. Schniederjans wrote:

dbags wrote:

Alan Webb had better 800-1000m PRs.

Unless you did mean 800m to 1000m... but...

Aouita has faster PBs for every distance besides the 800m which he is 2 hundredths slower than Webb.

Also Webb did not medal in a major international championship.

Webb was au naturele. Aouita pushed the Aussies to use drugs when he coached them, which is why he was fired.

Anyone know why Aouita didn't run the 5000m at the 1988 Olympics?

Seydoux wrote:

Anyone know why Aouita didn't run the 5000m at the 1988 Olympics?

This has been gone over in the other threads. The question you should be asking is why Aouita didn't run in the 800/1500 at the 84 Olympics.

As 88 came around, Ovett was finished, it looked like Coe was finished, and it looked like even Cram was largely a spent force. He could stop dodging the Brits and compete in his favourite events and the sport's blue riband events.

I believe his intention was to do the 5000/10000 double in 92 but obviously that was a pipe dream. He got injured for the first time in years in 88 through the intensity of the sprint work needed for the 800m. So really he was a victim of his own ego. He was probably aware too of what the future of African running held. He knew that if a 14:00 5000m runner like him can transform into a 12:55 guy with Italian help, then there would shortly be a stream of young Africans running even faster than that.

The guy did have the biggest ego in track history.

I remember at the time the explanation given at the time for his declaration upon arrival at Seoul to go for the 800, 1500, 5000 'triple' was because he was jealous of the attention the Carl Lewis/Ben Johnson showdown was getting.

O. Schniederjans wrote:

He is the only man in history to run the 800 m under 1:44, the 1500 m under 3:30, the 3000 m under 7:30 and the 5000 m under 13:00.

sub 1:45, sub 3:30, 4 x sub 7:30, and sub 12:55 beats those marks. Choge is better by far.

this is spot on. He waited until the Brits were no threat. Back then the 1500m was the event to win and he was the world record holder. Why did he not double in the 1987 World Champs as a prelude to the Olympics?

Yes.

No question

Bad Wigins wrote:

O. Schniederjans wrote:

He is the only man in history to run the 800 m under 1:44, the 1500 m under 3:30, the 3000 m under 7:30 and the 5000 m under 13:00.

sub 1:45, sub 3:30, 4 x sub 7:30, and sub 12:55 beats those marks. Choge is better by far.

What big races has Choge actually won? Nothing of note.

How many world records has Choge broken? None.

How many No. 1 World Ranking has Choge had? None that I can recall.

Aouita had many number 1 rankings, not to mention No. 1 rankings (although I possibly disagree with the 88 No.1 ranking at 800m) at all distances from 800 to 10k! I don't think anyone has done that, ever!

Choge competed 20 + years later, with faster tracks, more in depth competition and even more drugs available. And the Kenyans had no testing from their national federation until very recently. Having said that, I have no reason to believe Choge has ever doped, I'm just playing devil's advocate.

If you look at Aouita's best races, it was pretty clear he was capable of significantly faster than his pb's over all distances (as were most of the other leading middle distance runners of the era; the pacing at time in the 80's was horrendous). I think Choge was pretty close to his maximum potential in his 3:29.4 1500m.

Aouita would have destroyed Choge over any distance from 800m to 5000m. Of that I have no doubt.

The one question mark over Aouita is obviously the whole incident when he was in Australia. It didn't look good, and I can understand why some on here are dismissive of Aouita's exploits because of it. However, even if there is truth in the accusations made by a couple of Australian athletes a decade or so ago, and I have to say I don't know the extent of evidence against him other than their word, that in itself is not proof of Aouita's use in his career.

Again, the 'big jump' forward in his pbs between 82 and 83, coinciding with his apparent move to Italy, does raise a few eyebrows. But at the end of the day he never tested positive, and others over the years have had breakout years of similar impact.

I would have more confidence that Ovett was not using any kind of drug, but this is a moot point without any specific evidence.

With regards to the title of this thread, I think the answer has to be yes, especially in terms of time.

In terms of versatility as a middle/long distance runner, (specifically 800 m to 10k) the title of the other thread on here which I have tried to keep out of, then I would have to say that both Aouita and Ovett are head and shoulders above anyone else in modern times, in terms of potential and actual medals won.

Aouita has medaled in global championships at 800, 1500 and 5000m. 2 Golds at 5000m, but only bronzes at 8 & 15. Of course he certainly had the talent to win a gold in the 1500 if he'd chosen to run that distance in 87 or 88, in his best form. I don't think he'd have won in 84, but that is just my opinion.

But Ovett actually won golds over all 3 distances at a major championships. Olympic gold at 800, which is as good as it gets, European gold at 1500m, not to mention 2 World Cup golds at the distance, at a time before the World Champs was introduced and which I strongly believe are equivalent to a world title in context, and a Commonwealth gold.

Now, I should also point out that the standard of the Commonwealth final was not as good as the 2 fields Aouita faced in winning his 2 global 5000m finals, but that is not the fault of Ovett, who looked good enough in 86 to run much below 13.10. If it wasn't for the cold /chest infection he picked up in Stuttgart a month after the Commonwealths, I strongly believe he'd have won there.

Ovett as well, was certainly capable of much faster than his pb's indicated.

I do not think, however, that Ovett at his best would have beaten Aouita at his best over 5000m. That's not to say that Ovett didn't have the innate talent and ability to run sub 13 had he trained for it earlier in his career; perhaps 80 - 83.

I don't think Aouita at his best would have beaten Ovett over 800m in the Moscow final, especially the way that race was run over the first lap. Again, in terms of absolute best time achievable by both over 2 laps, it would be close, but I'd give the nod to Ovett.

At 1500m it would be very close. If I had to call it one way or the other, I'd probably go for Ovett in a Championship situation, and Aouita in a paced time trial.

Aouita was best over a prolonged drive from 500-300m out.

If Ovett was in contention with 200m to go, and the pace hadn't been taken 'all out' at the bell, then Ovett would have beaten Aouita IMO. But it would have been inches between them.

Anything from 3000m upwards on the track, based purely on what they actually did (and ignoring any suggestion of drug use, which isn't proven)., then Aouita would get the nod.

If you look at road races and X- country, Ovett proved how versatile he was. I doubt Aouita's frame would have allowed him to come 4th in the English Counties X-Country over 8 miles, as Ovett managed, in 1978.

To summarise, both Ovett and Aouita were all- time greats of athletics. They were probably the 2 greatest 'middle-long distance' runners of all time, certainly of the last 50 years. There are strong arguments for both.

Ego the Size of Africa wrote:

The guy did have the biggest ego in track history.

I remember at the time the explanation given at the time for his declaration upon arrival at Seoul to go for the 800, 1500, 5000 'triple' was because he was jealous of the attention the Carl Lewis/Ben Johnson showdown was getting.

There are rumours he faked the injury in Seoul when he realized he wasn't going to go through with his boast of running all three.