Grace Ping vs. Heidi Sumsion

This isn't a test of who can develop better. This is a test of who gets screwed less by puberty, which is more or less a coin-flip.

Park City actually has a pretty good program, especially on the girls side. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

??? Last year their fastest guy only ran a 4:56 mile. Their girls side is better, you're right about that. But even then their girls aren't great

Probably true

Others have made some good points: at this age, the effects of puberty are a huge unknown. Who will be less affected? Who can get through puberty and get stronger from it? Who can be psychologically strong enough to handle some initial loss in speed for a long-term growth in strength?

All that said, I think most folks (if they were to look at the resumes of the girls) would agree that Grace Ping is the superior runner at this stage. Will that matter much? Probably not, since the two girls will likely never race against each other except at national level meets (NXRSW, NXN, etc).

Grace Ping runs 45 mpw, has a private coach, and flies all over the country in pursuit of age group records. Running is clearly a high priority for her and her family. Meanwhile there are girls around her age running just as fast in the 8 and 16 off of nothing but soccer training. So Grace and this other girl may be good talents, but we need to wait until everyone gets into a HS program to see how things shake out. (Fwiw, I'd be surprised if even half of the FL and NXN finalists on the girls side were training more than 45 mpw)

400er wrote:

Grace Ping runs 45 mpw, has a private coach, and flies all over the country in pursuit of age group records.

YAWN. . . . . same super jealous of Grace Ping father of a girl runner who is too slow to accomplish her daddy's dreams.

400er wrote:

Grace Ping runs 45 mpw, has a private coach, and flies all over the country in pursuit of age group records. Running is clearly a high priority for her and her family. Meanwhile there are girls around her age running just as fast in the 8 and 16 off of nothing but soccer training. So Grace and this other girl may be good talents, but we need to wait until everyone gets into a HS program to see how things shake out. (Fwiw, I'd be surprised if even half of the FL and NXN finalists on the girls side were training more than 45 mpw)

Posted January 17, 2013

Jordan Hasay runs 60 mpw, has a collegiate running coach, and flies all over the country in pursuit of individual and team wins for Oregon University. Running is clearly a high priority for her and her family. Meanwhile there are girls around her age who could be just as good playing soccer, lacrosse, and tennis. So Jordan and these other girls may be good talents, but we neet to wait until everyone turns professional to see how things shake out. (Fwiw, I'd be surprised if even half the professional women runners were training more than 60 mpw)

These are 13 year old girls!! Who cares other than 13 year old boys.

If you are an adult male who cares you need to get a life!!

Jayordon wrote:

??? Last year their fastest guy only ran a 4:56 mile. Their girls side is better, you're right about that. But even then their girls aren't great

two important notes:

-PRs are from athletic.net and therefore are probably incomplete, but the picture it paints it pretty convincing.

-Park City is a smaller school, being in 3A compared to Springville's 4A/5A. Enrollment is about 1150 vs. about 1500?

Recent girls alums:

Alyssa Snyder (2015): 10:30.87/4:56.69; NXN #31, NXN #26

Alisse Walker (2013): 10:41.47/5:01.56y

Maddie Criscione (2014): 10:59.21/5:00.63; FLN #34

Sophie McDonald (2014): 10:59.96/5:02.03

Annie Orr (2013): 11:04.00/5:03.49

Madison Carr (2017): 11:13.68/5:12.34

They have also been one of the better XC programs in the NXN Southwest region, which is probably one of the deepest regions in the nation.

Yes, the guys haven't as competitive, outside of Ben Saarel of course.

Springville, for comparison:

One girl under 11:40 (Julie Sumsin 11:07.09)

Two girls under 5:15 (Julie Sumsin 5:02.22, Megan Robinson 5:10.30)

No national XC qualifiers

The guys side for Springville is a bit better, with Spencer Gardner (a former FLN qualifier), two other sub-9:40 guys and another sub-4:20 guy.

Park City clearly has had a stronger program for quite a while, specifically on the girls side, although Springville has a pretty good boys team at the moment.

also, XC bests (using athletic.net again), since I'm too lazy to look at Utah State marks specifically:

Park City: 19 girls at 19:20 or better, 20 guys at 16:40 or better

Springville: 5 girls at 19:20 or better, 17 guys at 16:40 or better

Athletic.net is what every Utah meet uses so it is very complete. If Springville is 4a/5a then park city is 3a/4a because they're moving up to 4a next year just like springville moving up to 5a next year. You can't compare the history of the teams either. There is no way of telling how the programs have changed over the years. Right now, at this moment of time, Springville has a much better program. If Park City had even a decent program then they would have more people running fast.

Also, comparing cross country times means nothing. Every course is different. You could run 16 flat on one course and 17 on another. You can't efficiently compare times over courses.

I hope grace ping doesnt run 45mpw. That is not crazy mileage but i believe undertraining is better for someone her age. 30mpw is plenty for an 8th grader (i think she is in 8th grade).

I am in the camp of hoping she rakes a conservative approach for the next few years. She will still be highly successful and can pick things up when she physically matures. She has great potential so she shouldnt allow herself to lose out the the "too disease".

Too much

Too soon

Thanks "Oh?" for looking up those facts and figures comparing SHS and Park City. It can be easy to fall into the "what have you done lately?" traip and looking at history can help you understand the true quality and strength of a program.

Any chance Grace will even run for Park City? She seems to have found a niche in running open college races and sub-elite races with the assorted high school event tossed in the mix at the end. Will she change that up when she enters high school?

Jayordon wrote:

Athletic.net is what every Utah meet uses so it is very complete. If Springville is 4a/5a then park city is 3a/4a because they're moving up to 4a next year just like springville moving up to 5a next year. You can't compare the history of the teams either. There is no way of telling how the programs have changed over the years. Right now, at this moment of time, Springville has a much better program. If Park City had even a decent program then they would have more people running fast.

You're arguing semantics here, Springville's enrollment is about 30% larger and has well underperformed in comparison to Park City over the last decade, specifically on the girls side (which is what is going to matter when you're talking about girl athletes).

Athletic.net is not complete in it's history. While most Utah meets nowadays end up on athletic.net, there are still some missing, and it has only been used significantly for the last couple of years, probably coinciding with Runnerspace/Dyestat acquiring Athletic.net and giving them more people working on adding results to the website.

It's hard to say Springville has a good girls program when they've only had 1 runner break 11:40 in school history (according to Athletic.net). That's a pretty subpar number for a school of that size. Same for having only one runner under 5:10, and only one more runner under 5:15. That is not an impressive history. Park City, on the other hand, has been pretty good for a smaller school, both in XC and Track. That is a lot of athletes running well over the last 5-10 years for a school of that size.

Yes, Park City didn't have as good of a season this past year as they have had in the past, and Springville had the best season in school history. That does a good job of describing the current team, but does a poor job of describing the actual program.

This is not meant as a significant criticism of the Springville coaches, as the team is running well right now. However, their history doesn't yet touch what Park City has done, and it is really not remotely close. That is a credit to Park City, which has been one of the better average sized schools in the nation.

As for your mentioning that XC times don't matter without reference to course, I agree, which is why I mentioned that I was only listing those raw times because I didn't want to take the time to look at the history at the Utah State meet, which wouldn't be a perfect comparison but would be a very good comparison. I can guarantee you that it would end up suggesting the exact same thing: Park City has had many more fast performances than Springville.

Also, just looking at last year, since that's what you seem to be concerned about most, I would still say Park City had a MUCH better track season.

Park City had 6 girls better than Springville's #2:

1 Julie Sumsion, Springville = 5:02.22, 11:10.16, 2:17.93

2 Madison Carr, Park City = 5:12.34, 11:13.68, 2:22.39

3 Liza Greene, Park City = 2:25.49, 5:37.99, 12:59.08

4 Claire Breiholz, Park City = 5:35.18, 2:33.26, 12:34.88

5 Daisy Townshend, Park City = 12:06.40, 5:44.40, 2:42.15

6 Kate Young, Park City = 2:32.85, 5:52.09

7 Haley Hunt, Park City = 5:41.66, 2:35.92, 12:26.79

8 Mariah Skinner, Springville = 5:42.58, 2:38.10, 12:32.30

9 Ella Park, Springville = 5:45.96, 2:36.43, 12:48.68

10 Aspen Neville, Park City = 5:47.40, 12:37.26, 2:43.67

11 Sydney Oraskovich, Park City = 5:49.65, 12:39.06, 2:43.02

12 Kaitlyn Gee, Springville = 5:55.20, 2:51.85, 14:15.35

... that is roughly how I would rank the athletes times, and that is a landslide in favor of Park City. So we can see that even if you disregard the last 5-10 years that clearly showed Park City being a VERY strong program, last year was still the very same case.

I'm not trying to say that Park City has a bad program. Their program is good. However, it's not as good as what Springvilles program is turning into. All the runners in Park City that you have mentioned are juniors and seniors so of course they will run fast times. There are quite a few of the Springville girls that are running fast times that are only sophomores who ran those fast times as freshmen. You need to take age into account too.

Oh?-

Here are the times from this last year's State XC Meet for Park City and Springville:

Springville:

Julie Sumsion 17:55.8

Ella Park 19:33.1

Mariah Skinner 19:40.1

Anela Christensen 19:53.8

Kaitlyn Gee 20:06.6

Katherine Rex 20:57.8

Chloe Fullmer 21:00.0

Park City:

MacKenna Doilney 19:24.7

Madison Carr 19:38.1

Sydney Oraskovich 19:51.7

Liza Greene 20:18.3

Daisy Townshend 20:23.5

Stephanie Burnham 20:44.8

Sydney LaPine 21:40.0

Put in order, it looks something like this:

SHS1 17:55.8

PC1 19:24.7

SHS2 19:33.1

PC2 19:38.1

SHS3 19:40.1

PC3 19:51.7

SHS4 19:53.8

SHS5 20:06.6

PC4 20:18.3

PC5 20:23.5

PC6 20:44.8

SHS6 20:57.8

SHS7 21:00.0

PC7 21:40.0

As an FYI, here are boys' times from this year (which, though we aren't talking about the boys' programs at each school, presumably there is similar training happening between the boys and girls at each school):

Springville:

Grant Gardner 15:04.2

Brandon Garnica 15:16.7

Haden Penrod 15:47.3

Caleb Garnica 16:08.1

Paul Young 16:22.2

Adam Krieger 16:40.9

Zackary Dalley 16:44.9

Park City:

Nick Burnz 16:50.5

Kyle Weldon 17:25.0

Kaleb Barnhart 17:25.4

Anton Hibl 17:34.7

Jacob Freeman 17:49.1

Jackson Parker 17:53.9

Jack McMullin 17:57.7

Now, with all that out there, I still think Oh?'s point stands-- all these numbers and times just provide a snapshot on the "health" of each program this year on this one day. Looking at the history of each program over time is probably a better indicator of the relative strength of the program rather than looking at a potential "flash in the pan." The SHS Girls XC team was stronger than the Park City Girls XC team THIS YEAR. Will that trend continue? Who knows. Same goes for the boys.