How to get to the next level?

Navyhawkfive wrote:

My question is am I thinking clearly?

No.

Navyhawkfive wrote:

Should I be able to run faster with my training?

No.

Navyhawkfive wrote:

Is speed work what I am missing?

Yes.

Navyhawkfive wrote:

I'd appreciate any advice or tips you can give to help me take it up to the next level.

You've made good progress doing what you're doing. 18:05 is a fine time, and you can probably run much faster than your current PBs at 10k and half marathon.

Run more miles, do more speed work.

speedwork can and will help, but the major key is probably to make sure you continue to enjoy running so that you stick with it. Stuff like tempos and fartleks are great ways to get in some speed work while not needing to change your schedule dramatically (i.e. when you would normally do a 5 miler, warm-up a mile, do something like 3 miles works or 2:00 hard 2:00 easy, 1 cooldown). building your longrun could help as well but i would recommend upping your milage generally vs just building your long run. good luck!

Thanks for taking the time to answer! More miles and speed work sound like the recipe! Any specific speed work routines you recommend?

trossi wrote:

speedwork can and will help, but the major key is probably to make sure you continue to enjoy running so that you stick with it. Stuff like tempos and fartleks are great ways to get in some speed work while not needing to change your schedule dramatically (i.e. when you would normally do a 5 miler, warm-up a mile, do something like 3 miles works or 2:00 hard 2:00 easy, 1 cooldown). building your longrun could help as well but i would recommend upping your milage generally vs just building your long run. good luck!

I definitely enjoy running and I understand the pitfall you are cautioning me to avoid. Sounds like I should up my weekly mileage more! Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

Your 5K time is much better than your 10K, which is noticeably better than your HM time. That suggests that it's the endurance side where you need the most work.

35 mpw is what the local guys around here typically do. 5-6 miles a day is what they think of as normal. 5 miles a day plus 10 on the weekend, right? If you're looking to get to the next level, the first place to start is running more miles. For you, maybe that means 45 mpw. Or maybe 55. Or 65. Whatever the next level you can reach is, increasing mileage is probably the single most important thing you can do. 10 miles is also too short of a long run for the 10K/HM, so push that up as well. The next level might mean 13, or it might mean 16.

What do you do for a tempo run? For 10K/HM, doing some longer, slower tempo runs is important.

The thing is, if you're doing a solid tempo run (like 6:15 pace for 20 minutes or so), that's actually harder for most people than intervals. "Speedwork" can be a lot of different things, from short sprints with long rests to mile repeats with tiny rests. The kind you need to do depends on what your goal race distance is, and how close you're getting to the race.

But you don't need a perfect program to get to the next level. Just pick a race distance, and once a week, run a while at that race pace, jog until you feel ready to go again, and do another. From week to week, try to run a bit farther at race pace. That's all it is. So if you want to work on your 5K time, start at 3 x 800 or so, and see if you can do 3 x 1000 or 4 x 800 next time, or 3 x 800 with slightly shorter rests, or at a slightly faster pace. And so on from week to week. It doesn't need to be gut busting difficult, just consistent. For some big improvement in your 10K/HM times, you don't need much of this at all. Mileage and long tempos will do more for you.

Hey man, I was right where you were two years ago. Similar age, similar build, and I had a nice weekly routine. My times were even comparable to yours. But I started to get frustrated because I stopped progressing after a few years. So here are my thoughts.

I think your times are decent and consistent with your training. It seems like you have progressively increased your mileage over the past 5 years and have seen a performance boost as you ran more. No shocker there- you run more you get faster. Now that you have held a consistent mileage and training format for the past year you feel like you have plateaued. Well, think about that. You haven't run more or changed any component of your training- of course you have plateaued!

So, how to get to the next level?

1) More miles. Even if you run them at the same pace you are doing now you'll most likely see a performance boost.

2) Speed work? Eh, it cant hurt but as 'do try this at home' noted your 5K is better than your 10K which is better than your HM so I don't think a lack of speed is holding you back. I'd even go as far as saying that your 5K time is quite good considering your training. More likely it is your lack of endurance and Lactate Threshold that is holding you back in the longer races. Its easy enough to improve though. To improve endurance lengthen your long run a bit. 10 miles is adequate for 5K training but borderline for 10K and too short for HM. Also, pick up the pace on your long runs. I really like starting them out at a conversational pace and slowly pick up the pace to the point where the second half is a bit uncomfortable. Not panting out of breath uncomfortable, but you should feel like you are working. Long runs shouldn't be easy miles. I think the best way to improve your Lactate Threshold are standard tempo runs (20 - 30 min at Lactate Threshold) or cruise intervals (5 x mile at Lactate Threshold). You can get fancy with some other stuff but these workouts are very straight forward. In case you are not familiar with the terminology, your Lactate Threshold pace is the pace you can hold for an hour under race conditions. Plenty of online calculators can help you find yours.

3) I think the number one thing holding you back is your lack of periodization. I could be completely off here but from your post it seems like you run the same routine week in and week out. Pick up Faster Road Racing by Pete Pfitzinger or Running Formula by Jack Daniels and school yourself up a bit. The basic concept of periodization is that you focus on different components of your fitness at different times of your training.

On a personal note I am a big Pfitzinger fan. Two years ago I was a 45mpw with a 18:20 5K and 39:00 10K. The first training cycle produced a 2:56:10 marathon, the second a 1:20:30 HM, the third a 35:40 10K, and the fourth 1:17:10 HM. All training cycles peaked around in the low 70mpw.

I follow 22 week training cycles. The first two weeks are super low mileage immediately following my goal race. It's a mental break and I usually treat myself with a vacation during this time. The next 8 weeks I build back up hitting 3 key runs a week- A tempo run, a speed or hill day, and a long run. I don't run any of these runs particularly hard and I shuffle the days around at will. If I want to run a race I'll treat it as a tempo run or just do a big warm up/cool down and call it a long run. I cap off the build up phase with a 8-15K race to see where I'm at fitness wise. Then I move into a 12 week training program pretty much right out of the book. I followed his 12/70 marathon plan almost to the letter. I've had play around with his 10k and HM plans a bit because the workout days don't really hit my schedule and my comfortable weekly mileage falls between his two plans. Most recently I did his multiple race training plan and I really liked it.

You have a good base. If I were you I would pick a race 12 weeks out, pick a training plan from the aforementioned books, and get at it. I think a real training plan will make all the difference for you.

That's very helpful, thanks for the reply!

Periodization wrote:

You haven't run more or changed any component of your training- of course you have plateaued!

Yes.

One little addition into OP´s program could be weekly hill sprints, those will improve your running efficiency/economy -> you use less (could be about 3-4%) oxygen at X pace than before. There are many other benefits too. You should also add more miles. Maybe could run slower in your easy runs, especially if you bump up the mileage?

Periodization, thank you! Your answer is exactly what I need to hear! It's so hard to find people who run more than me or know more than me to ask questions to.

You are spot on about my routine. I do everything the same week after week. That's one reason I know that I'm in a rut. Starting this week I'm going to push up to 40 mpw and add about 10% a week until I hit 45 mpw. I'll check out the plans you mentioned as well. There is a half marathon I can run in late February, so that gives me time for a build up.

Thanks again for taking the time to type our a thoughtful, helpful answer.

U.N.O. wrote:

One little addition into OP´s program could be weekly hill sprints, those will improve your running efficiency/economy -> you use less (could be about 3-4%) oxygen at X pace than before. There are many other benefits too. You should also add more miles. Maybe could run slower in your easy runs, especially if you bump up the mileage?

Good point. When I set my 5k PR I did several weeks of hill sprints. I kinda loved doing those, made me feel like a badass. Now if only I could find a hill....

There's a lot of good answers here, and there's no point in me repeating what is already being said. But basically it comes down to running more miles.

Speedwork helps, only to a point though unless you have that endurance. It's interesting that I keep on thinking that's obvious, but for some reason is still not obvious to the mass running world.

So over the next year gradually periodize up to around 60-70 mpw. Keep your easy runs easy so you don't get injured - these runs are not about ego! Don't put the long run on a pedestal either. Do long runs and make them slightly longer, sure, but I've trained with so many people who increase their long run without increasing weekly mileage and then they wonder why they PR in the marathon by only 1 minute or less.

I'm digressing here though. Endurance over a long time, with a dose of weekly speed. That's it.

Navyhawk-

No problem. I don't consider myself an authority on running or training but I have found a routine that works for me. I thought about your situation a little more last night and I have a few more thoughts.

- Everyone, including myself, has recommended more miles. But that's not possible for everyone especially for those of us in our early 30s when we are trying to establish ourselves in our careers and start families. Once I went above 50mpw I noticed that running became a much larger part of my life and I had to sacrifice in other areas. Even if you aren't able to increase your total mileage I think you will find improvements by following training cycles.

- Training paces. A lot of people, myself included and probably you as well, run most of their runs at one pace. We'll call this 'Moderate Pace' and it usually falls somewhere between what Pfitz would call Recovery/General Aerobic pace and Lactate Threshold pace. The problem with this is that 'Moderate Pace' is too slow to allow recovery and not fast enough to improve your endurance (assuming no change in volume), lactate threshold, or VO2 max. Every run should have a specific purpose and trigger a specific adaptation in your fitness. The pace and intensity of that run should reflect that desired adaptation. For example, if you want to improve your Lactate Threshold you should be running at or close to your Lactate Threshold pace. My recovery runs tend to be very slow (usually around 8:30, sometimes as slow as 9:00) because their only purpose it to get me over the last workout and ready for the next one.

- Finally, don't feel pressured to PR in every race I am a firm believer in 'keeping the main thing the main thing' so if I am training for a big HM PR 12 weeks out I don't sacrifice any training time to run a good race mid cycle. Sure, sometimes I run a surprise PR but usually I go into races a bit fatigued and have a mediocre result. That's fine, they are just prep for the big race.

- Ah, actually one final note. 'Keeping the main thing the main thing' applies to workouts too. Running faster than your goal pace/splits/distance can be counter productive if it takes too long to recover and hurts your future workouts. This is one aspect of my training that I continually struggle with. I'll run a tempo or interval workout and absolutely crush it. Then I'll run a Medium Long run the next day and still feel great and crush that one too. And then I'll have shitty runs for the next 5 days because I worked too hard. Nobody cares about the guy that ran some killer workouts- only the guy that delivers on 'A' race day.

Absolutely. 35 mpw has been sustainable for me my family and career. I was just thinking that if I pushed it up to 45 or 50 I'd have to change my routine a bit. Not impossible, but it would be a change. I think it would be better than spending time watching TV.

Guilty as charged. I've known that I should not run every run the same and I even preach it to myself and other runners. But it's really hard to put into practice. I've actually been very intentional about running my slow runs slow and fast runs fast in the past 6 months. I've not been super successful at it, but I will keep trying!

That is so true it hurts. People barely care how fast I can run a race anyway let alone in my workouts! Besides, for most people anything faster than a 21 minute 5k is not even fathomable.

Thanks again for the wisdom and information. I truly appreciate it!

"Moderate pace" = Black Hole = pitfall of every hobbyjogger

More miles, slow down all but the tempos and speed work. Probably 9:00-10:00 miles for you right now. One you stabilize mileage around 50 or so, then you can slowly bring the pace down (still VERY easy most days though)

I am struggling with running slower. I definitely fall into the "moderate pace" black hole someone mentioned. I run in the low 60s for mileage, but there's hardly any variance in my pace. On a good day, I run 10 miles at 7:15. On a bad day, I run 10 miles at 7:40. That's about as much as it varies.

I try to make myself run slower but it never lasts - I keep falling back into my same pace. How do I make myself slow down? And how do I convince myself that it will make a difference?

runfaster22 wrote:

I am struggling with running slower. I definitely fall into the "moderate pace" black hole someone mentioned. I run in the low 60s for mileage, but there's hardly any variance in my pace. On a good day, I run 10 miles at 7:15. On a bad day, I run 10 miles at 7:40. That's about as much as it varies.

I try to make myself run slower but it never lasts - I keep falling back into my same pace. How do I make myself slow down? And how do I convince myself that it will make a difference?

If you have a good training program slow recovery days should come pretty natural. Are you just going out and running every day or do you have a program with workouts? If you just go run its not surprising you would find yourself stuck in the 'black hole'. You aren't making yourself tired enough for your body to feel like it needs a recovery.

If you do have workouts mixed in maybe you aren't running them hard enough? When I slay myself during a workout I have no problem keeping the pace slow the next day. I think the fast recovery/slow workout problem becomes a bit of a downward spiral sometimes- you didn't recover enough so you cant run a hard workout which doesn't make you tired enough for your next recovery so you go to quick which prevents you from having a good workout.... well, you get the idea.

Running with slow people is always helpful. I do one of my recovery days with a run club sponsored by a bar. We run super easy 9 min miles, chat about our soul sucking jobs and our idiot kids and pain in the ass wives, and grab a few beers afterwards. It's my favorite run of the week. It makes running fun, I get a good recovery, and I met some new friends (which is super hard to do in your 40s BTW).

If that's not an option maybe a GPS watch can help. Set and alert for a certain pace or HR and don't go over it. I'm a compulsive pace checker on my Garmin for all runs (bad habit, I know. I should run by 'feel') so if I see my pace starting to dip I slow it down right away before I can get comfortable there.

Doubles might help. It takes me a few miles to get the juices flowing. If I do two 30 min recovery runs its easier to keep the pace slow as opposed to a 7 mile recovery run where I hit cruising speed half way through.

Maybe try running somewhere new? I'm kinda reaching here but a new route with new scenery might distract you and slow you down. When I run along the beach I go slow because of all the... scenery.

The only reason you can't run faster over the longer distances is either a short 5k or inability to nut up for more than 18 minutes.

People always go on about needing different training to do well over longer distances but your 5k shape essentially determines your range.

You can run a 38 minute 10k and a 1:24 half RIGHT NOW. You don't need to change a thing about your training until you sort out your racing ability.