Disappointed at NYC Marathon--Should I go back-to-back?

Sorry you missed your mark. I ran New York too and was well off my goal time. Was hoping to break 2:43 and didn't come close.

Be proud of yourself. New York is a tough course. I thought I was in PR shape and fell off. If you look at the elite fields, almost everyone fell off their goal pace badly the last 10K. Compare times at the first half and where most finished. It's eye opening.

you had a good race and you have to accept that it didn't go as planned. it's not like you were sick or injured. you just didn't live up to your expectations.

back to backs are for when you have to not leave everything out on the course.

if you attempt this, you will likely do worse than you did at NY and given your age it could be your last marathon.

i agree with the person who said go find a shorter race and shoot for a PR. but you are still way more beat up than you are willing to admit given you actually had a good race.

i was on the same boat, first marathon ever. GPS messed up and had to run by feel, ran 6:30s instead of 7:00/6:50s for the first 9 miles and paid for it at the end. Training and other results suggested I shouldve run easily under 3:00 and I came away with a 3:05 due to immense cramping the last 3 miles after being on pace for a 2:53/55 for 16 miles. i was considering attempting to run Philly Marathon in two weeks because I know had I ran a better pace I would've had a much better result.

I've reconsidered in the two days since and it is simply not worth the risk of injury/delaying recovery any longer. I am going to hold off until next fall and go from there with the experience under my legs now

Keep your head up!

You ran your race in training. 22 at 6:53 is ridiculous. No need to do that. Your coach is a moron for having you do that. And a double moron for doubling down on the stupidity and suggesting a 2nd marathon when you are injured. Get a new coach. Or better yet, save your money and buy gym membership or a treadmill so you can run in the winter.

outsiderunner wrote:

Thanks, darkwave, as I think you make good points. I disagree with the spring marathon suggestion. After two injury-plagued winters, winter marathon training gives me the creeps. In fact, after the first winter injury, I should have learned my lesson.

I understand - we all have things that we know just don't work for us, and it'd be silly to try to push it through a winter again, given your past experiences.

There are later spring/early summer marathons that might be good options. Toronto or New Jersey or Eugene in May. Grandma's in June.

I had also missed before that you did a 24 week training cycle - that seems very long to me (and also argues strongly against you trying to stretch stuff out to another race). Perhaps a shorter cycle next time, which would allow you to race a late spring marathon while not training through the winter.

Another option would be to focus on half-marathons in the spring, and then race a fall marathon off of a shorter training cycle.

Hard to say. It could be as people have suggested that you were overtrained and left your race in practice. It could also be that strange surroundings affected your race. If it's not too far away I don't see any harm in trying another race as long as you don't try and gut through it. If your splits are bad and you're feeling bad drop out, don't push it, not worth it. Just take it easy until then -- no workouts, no 22 milers at marathon pace.

My coach did not suggest the back-to-back, a friend did. He also did not suggest doing a 22-miler at marathon pace. When I feel good, I just go. It was a scheduled 22-mile long run with tempo, and I took things further. That is just the way I am. I do not understand all of this holding back. Adaptation occurs when the body is pushed. Yes, pushing too much could be bad, but at no time did I feel I was beyond my boundaries. Never came close to having leg pain, either, and the next day I ran just fine.

outsiderunner wrote:

I do not understand all of this holding back. Adaptation occurs when the body is pushed. Yes, pushing too much could be bad, but at no time did I feel I was beyond my boundaries. Never came close to having leg pain, either, and the next day I ran just fine.

Adaptation occurs when the body is pushed, and then recovers and bounces back stronger. Push too hard, and you don't absorb the training. And you don't always know when you've hit that point. Things can feel fine during the cycle - you're tired but completing workouts, and you reason that as long as you can complete your workouts, you're fine. It's not until you "mysteriously" underperform on race day that you learn otherwise. If you're open to hearing that message.

There's also the point that pushing too hard too soon tells your body to peak at that point, and you're already on the downside when you actually get to your race.

CLASSIC CHOKE JOB.

I'll add that I also think you did your long runs too hard. I've never heard ANYBODY suggest doing a 22 mile run near goal pace. Even if your goal pace was 6:40s, 6:50 for the training run is way too fast.

don't do another marathon in 2016.

next time, don't do the 22 mile long run (it's unnecessary. just do a 20 miler at 8min pace). never run more than 15 miles at marathon pace or within ten seconds of it.

I appreciate the replies here. Thank you for taking some time to consider my training and race.

I still cannot understand how something like a 20-miler at 8:00 is going to help me excel (and improve) as a runner. Likewise, I never felt burned out and was never unable to perform a run or workout. In fact, I got better and better at workouts, and felt better and better at marathon pace.

I just cannot put this thought out of my mind: that 4+ hour slog of "preliminary stuff" had to take away something from my effort. I left the hotel at 5:30, and the gun (cannon) went off at 9:50. I waited in the dark on a line that was literally almost a half-mile long for the bus. On the bus, I fought off urination for 90 minutes. Even worse, once I got to the village and coral, it totaled a good two hours in standing and walking around. This is totally "out of the norm" for me. I rarely travel and I have always hated standing. I am fine with sitting, walking, or running, but have never liked standing. This was the first race in which so much standing, and other such nonsense, was involved.

I know that other people had to do this, but perhaps it affected me differently. So far, my mind tells me that I need to run races that are close to home and that keep me "in my routine"...with the same nutrition, too (not eating out for two days and having no refrigeration in my hotel room).

No one is suggesting you run 20 miles at 8:00 pace. Last time I broke 3:00, my long runs were all 16 to 20 miles long, and generally were broken into three parts: first third around 8:00 to 8:15 pace, middle third around 7:15 to 7:45 pace, and last third 6:45 to 7:10 pace. (And that was off of 55 MPW.) You don't need much more than this to break 3.

I totally agree that this was part of the problem. Live and learn I guess.

I would definitely not go back-to-back. That is a terrible idea. Most everyone I know faded pretty hard on Sunday, including yours truly, missing my PR (2:42) from earlier this year by 5 minutes. The conditions on Sunday were not ideal for fast marathoning and the second half of that course is very difficult. The last 6 miles after the Willis Avenue bridge felt like a death march. I will feel Sunday's run in my legs for a good 3-4 weeks. I can't imagine trying to race another marathon in 2 weeks. I would take a week off, run easy for a month or so, and then ramp back up with an abbreviated 10-12 week cycle geared towards a spring marathon.

6:40's??? Way faster than 3:00 pace.

maybe you went out too fast...perhaps doing the first 20 just below 7 and then running with all you got would have got you sub 3:00.

Good thoughts here, Raysism...

Nearly all of my long runs were run in a manner that is similar to what you have described. I would start off at around 8:00, then do most of the work at 7:00-7:20, and then end fairly fast, 6:30-6:40--and feeling good.

angryjohnny:

I feel for you. Sorry you did not get your PR. Yes, those last six miles were very tough. You mention race conditions. I heard so many goofy people (prior to the race and at the race) comment that the conditions were "good" or even "great," but I knew otherwise. I run best when temps are in the 40s and it is cloudy. My best half marathon (though this PR is now 2-years old) was run in 33 degrees, though it was fairly sunny that day.

no marathoners in kenya? wrote:

6:40's??? Way faster than 3:00 pace.

maybe you went out too fast...perhaps doing the first 20 just below 7 and then running with all you got would have got you sub 3:00.

This has crossed my mind a few times, and it is a good point. Perhaps I did go out a bit too fast. The miles truly felt good, though. Some even felt like jogging...

But you're not training for your next workout, you're training for the race. You've got 24 weeks of training leading to a race that didn't go as you'd hoped. Sure, the change in routine on the days before the race and the morning of likely contributed by I'm mystified as to why you're so eager to dismiss the evidence that you've accumulated. Just because you felt okay in subsequent runs doesn't mean that the 22-miler didn't hurt your marathon prep. Read the incredibly wise comment above that often the discipline of distance running means not running when you want to (or running slower than you feel like or running less than your training schedule calls for).

Why are you investing so much time an energy into a program and then saying "Oh I don't hold back I just run how I feel?" If that's your attitude in training then you need to accept that your races likely won't be up to your potential because you're burning too much energy in the weeks leading up to the race.

Also, note your OP in which you say you never get sore legs. It appears you've run two marathons and during one experienced significant cramping or muscle pain. This shouldn't be discounted as a one-off experience--it's happened in 50% of the marathons you've run.

[quote]outsiderunner wrote:

I never felt burned out and was never unable to perform a run or workout. In fact, I got better and better at workouts, and felt better and better at marathon pace.

quote]

I guess I am terrible at training and have become terrible at racing now, too.

You keep making generalized statements about what sort of marathon runner you are.

"I never have leg pain in a race"

"I always run faster in a marathon than in training"

"I guess I am a terrible racer now"

You've only run 2 marathons. It's not enough experience to be able to determine trends. You ran 1 minute off your PR on a tough course with a bunch of outside stressors (which you've already mentioned) that come with running a major big city travel marathon. I think that's a win.

I ran a half marathon this year where I started out too fast in the heat and humidity and death-shuffled to the finish. I was sore for DAYS after that run. The other 2 half marathons I've run this year (including one 3 weeks later with a 2 minute PR) I was totally fine the next day.

The marathon is a different beast from the half so the turnaround isn't as easy, and if you went out too fast and struggled to the finish then I'm willing to bet big that that run took way more out of you than an equivalent-time marathon with even splits would have. Rest up, maintain your fitness through the winter somehow, and go get it next year. (maybe consider going for some shorter distance PR's in December to cash in on that aerobic base)

Also, I think you went out too fast if your goal was sub 3.