Please critique my plan base phase plan. Goal of sub 17, sub 4:40 by spring!

Sorry for the typo in the title. Should say "Critique my plan: Base Phase"

So much of this is personal preference, and I am not completely familiar with Vigil's plans (though I have read a lot about his philosophy).

With that in mind, I have a few thoughts. Or questions.

Why run the 1000s so early? My concern would be burning out on that workout. And the intensity/pace would go up as you approach your goal races, but for met hat would not be enough change in the workouts. I would consider doing less structured time based workouts. So fartlek stuff like 2 mins on/2 off or ladders of 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. with 2-3 minutes recovery. Basically something that would let you hit a lot of different distances at intensity. You could also do this on the track with mixing in 400s through 2000s if you really like having things measured.

I enjoy an off day, too. But why Saturday? I'm mostly curious here. I just have more time on that day, so it is super easy to train. My off days come up sporadically during the week when I'm feeling super tired.

Consider upping the mileage slightly, and extending the long run. The guys at my university who specialize in the 800 are doing 10 mile long runs. For mile to 5k, in your winter base, I would like to see 12+ regularly, with some runs pushed out to 15 or more.

And maybe strides on one or two of the days. That will keep some faster, mile paced stuff in there. I know you have the 200s, but a few 15 to 20 second accelerations when you're feeling good on easy days could go a long way.

TL,DR: I think your plan is solid and could work, but I would want more variety and a tad more miles.

Thanks for the advice! I was going to begin the 1000s about 6-8 weeks in after I race a mile and establish my training paces. I really like your idea of the fartleks and I was going to do timed based ones on the road as you suggested. Vigil's plan calls for 1000/mile repeats as "fulcrum" workouts but I'm sure I can incorporate variety in there.

The reasoning for Saturdays off is that I coach HS meets that day but it is not set in stone, depending on my workload that week outside of running.

I also like your idea of bumping up the long run and after a few weeks of 10 miles, I would feel comfortable bumping up to 12.

Can anyone else comment on the variety of workouts in base phase under Vigil's plan?

If I was coaching you I would not have you doing squats or dead lifts. I'd have you target first about a 13 week mileage goal. Sounds like your ready to take it on. So if your targeting 50 then you got to hit 650 total at 13 week end. I like to start opposite from many, on say the 5x1000. So say we start in week 2 with a long interval workout. So maybe you did a 3mile this morning, real, real easy shakeout run. Evening, we are gonna do, to begin with, a 2000,1200,1000 X2. I know that sounds crazy. I'd be there 3 hours before you. I'd measure these maybe on a golf course fairway, or like, flat and slight downgrade. I'd put the wind at your back. Times would be way slow. Way within your range and then a 5 minute rest. Between warmup and cool down you have that days mileage. Soon we come down to 1600,1100,900X2. Targeting your say 5x1000 later and with gear changes, say 700 at one pace and negative pickups last 300. What is your easy long run pace and hard long run pace? I like your Tempo range and again I like to start way way easy...and then target actual negative pickup say your last 1000 of your Tempo. I'd suggest a very good log, BPM checks, NAPS take NAPS! Speed workputs something like the Bernie Montoya WOW workout, however I like much longer rests always. Like his 600,400,200,200 100,100x2. I like 600,300,300,200,100,100x2. Slow progress, keep simple, eat eat and sleep.

I know Joe Vigil means we'll but he's failed a lot of runners. He always looked after some but a failure for a lot of post collegiate. Joe did speed work year around so the time is now but I would do 200m/400m repeats instead.

That year Adam's State got a perfect score at nationals they ran within themselves and tried not to overtrain.

Good luck. You are committed, just make sure you enjoy what you are doing and that will help. Instead of doing 5 x 1000m try some time trials, alternate. LT you might be guessing. Watch your hamstrings on those 200s. Focus on your technique it is probably what is holding you back, look at your upper body tightness and foot plant slap, be light on your feet. Lose some weight. I was never a big fan of two runs per day, most people can handle it I couldn't, an extra shower, extra stretching, extra eating. I heard somewhere that Lagat only trained once per day, good enough for me.

Read this.

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/solving-the-5k-puzzle

This:

2 mi w/u, 5x1000m @ 85% mile speed (3:00 rest), 6x200m accelerations, 2 mi c/d

is a great workout if you do it every third week. The weeks in between should be something like 5 x 3:00 on 3:00 off on the road and the feeling should be one notch easier than the 1000s on the third week.

"LT run of 3 progressing to 5 or 6 miles, once every 3 weeks running up to 20 minutes at AT"

You may have switched LT and AT because 6 miles at 1 hour race pace is too hard.

I recommend using a kettlebell rather than squats and deadlifts. All three require learning the correct form but mistakes with squats and deadlifts are much more likely to happen during ONE form break whereas poor kettlebell form will first make you sore before something breaks.

Run on grass for your easy runs as much as possible.

You all make good points about the lifting. I am definitely a novice when it comes to weights so any help is appreciated. I wish I had a box or something to do lifts off of but I'm sure I can figure it out. Weight-wise, I'm probably around 145-150 and 5' 10" so I'm just kind of hoping the excess weight melts away in time.

I wish I could run on grass but in the area that I live, golf courses are the only legitimate option for that. Maybe I can get on those more as winter approaches. if my easy days are slower, that is fine. I try to keep them toned down (7:20-30) but they usually end up being closer to 7:00-7:15.

As for the 1000s, a lot of the advice with varying it up sounds like I should definitely be hitting all systems. Maybe I alternate my quality workout days: one week do 5x1000, next do 4xmile, next do 14-16x400s or 6x800s and then repeat. Keeping the LTs and ATs (and yes, I may have confused the terms of these haha). If I can get on the golf courses for these and maybe those ladders that were mentioned, I think that would be beneficial

I am absolutely committed to this and there is no way I am going to lose focus. Thank you for the help. I looks like the lifting and structure of the actual workouts is where I'll spend the most time tweaking.

I am also considering using hill repeats during the base phase. Do you think this is worthwhile and if so, which workout would it replace? Vigil suggests these but is a bit vague on how exactly they fit in. He just says to do them the first 6-8 weeks.

xcmets wrote:

I am also considering using hill repeats during the base phase. Do you think this is worthwhile and if so, which workout would it replace? Vigil suggests these but is a bit vague on how exactly they fit in. He just says to do them the first 6-8 weeks.

I'm more of a 10K+ road race guy so my approach to base is more endurance oriented. Hill workouts are a weekly part of my base training and I think they have a good place in base training for any distance. My base training looks like this:

Mon- 5-8 miles, easy pace. 10 x 100m strides

Tues- Tempo workout of 8 - 12 miles. Examples:

- 30 min WU, 24min @ LT, 20 min CD

- 30 min WU, 18 min @ LT, 3 min easy, 12 min @ LT, 20 min cool down

- 8 - 12 mile progression run, start at LT + 2 min, finish at LT + 30 sec

- 8 - 12 mile tempo, steady LT + 1 min

Wed: 5 - 8 miles, easy pace

Thurs: Hill workout. Examples

- 8 - 12 mile rolling hills. Push the uphill, coast the downs and flats

- 8 mile @ steady LT + 1min. 10 x 100m hill repeats

Fri: 5 mile, easy pace

Sat: 15 - 18 mile, start at LT + 2 min, finish at LT + 1 min.

Sun: Rest Day

TOTAL: Usually around 50-55.

I don't get super sciencey and technical with my training so I cant go quote any research on the benefits of hill running... but I do know how it makes me feel. First, hill running makes my legs feel strong. I've tried complimenting my running workouts with lifting and I was never able to find a good balance. When I did body weight or super light weights it took a lot of time and I never really felt much of a benefit. Heavier weights left me drained for a few days and hindered my running too much. Hills strike a good balance were I feel like my legs get the benefits of weights without the time and effort of going to the gym. They also give me a lot of confidence in hilly races. Pace is kinda irrelevant when you're on a hilly course but I run hills so much I feel like I have very good control over the energy/effort I expend. Hills don't intimidate me in a race and I usually look at them as an opportunity to gain an advantage on people who are faster than me.

OK, so I said I'm not sciency and technical but I do have one sciencyish and technicalish thing to add. Frank Shorter said that hills were speed work in disguise (or something to that effect) and I think that there is a lot of merit to that. Hill repeats seem to give me the same anaerobic benefits of speedwork with less impact. I've pulled a hamstring and wrecked my Achilles doing 200/400 workouts... never had any injuries while running hills.

Way too complex. Just run more and do a lot of tempo. Strides if you really feel your speed isn't there at all.

I was 8 years older than you and hit those times by just running more, and that was after years of trying to get fancy with stuff like guys above are mentioning.

The squats and deadlifts are large muscle group lifts. Like a bench workout, when were young maybe, we think we can do 2 bench workouts in a week. Ya kind of find out these large muscle group lifts kick your butt. It takes time to adapt to these without running. If you really wanted to integrate these large muscle group exercises..then I would research the best in the country and maybe their coaches concerning how they have their top runners hit these lifts.

On, say your 4 mile tempo, Salazar has video on line where he discusses Tempo pace. His HS men's Tempo pace answer, I found is right on. He mentions what can you run on the track all out for 5000. Or maybe whats your PR 5000 on the track. He uses 15:30...so thats 5:00 per mile. So 4 mile Tempo is at 5:15's ..15 sec slower per mile. Ya might have to start a bit slower and then your working to that 15 sec slower per mile. Sure helps if you have someone marking the 4 mile, splits, like getting you on pace in the first 200! Take it slow, record stuff. Your easy long run pace seems about right on. Me, I'm not sending you on that many 400's. Their is a video on Verzbicus (spel?). His mother coach is running him in about 7x400. They are high end 400's and he goes when BPM I think were at 120. I like good rests and maybe BPM of 114 before you go again.

Gnomebe wrote:

I know Joe Vigil means we'll but he's failed a lot of runners. He always looked after some but a failure for a lot of post collegiate. Joe did speed work year around so the time is now but I would do 200m/400m repeats instead.

Joe means we will what?

Interesting stuff about the Tempo paces. I will definitely consider this. As for 400s, I contemplated them but I might start incorporating them a little later in the season (pre competitive phase). I will also definitely try my best to use hills in either my distance days, repeats or uphill strides. I think they will be beneficial. I'm excited for this, my "week zero" starts Monday, and then I really get going the week after. If anyone knows a good track race to enter in April or May near NJ (where I won't be dead last or first), I would appreciate it. Direct Athletics has some at Ramapo and another at TCNJ (same weekend as Penn Relays :/) but I could have certainly missed some decent ones.

My "Week 0" (just getting back into running) is in the books. Feeling good so far, trying to run on soft surfaces led me to a local golf course which was fun even though I got told off by a golfer. This week starts actual structured training so I'm looking forward to that. My motivation was fueled even more today after watching the NYC marathon in person for the first time. Sub 17/4:40 are still the goals and am targeting an indoor mile to establish training paces for workouts in about 7 weeks.

Do you have GPS watch? There expensive but can be helpful when trying to keep on good ground. You have a first goal trial date in mind? Just to see where your at and how it felt at certain date. Take it easy out there. Remember your shooting right now for the 4:40 and sub 17. Snow coming soon, if you have that watch your footing and the morons out there trying to run you over. Everyone is gonna be getting some sickness, don't let em give it to you. Take care and remember how important rest and recovery is....they are two different things.

I do have a GPS watch (Garmin 610), very helpful indeed. I might have identified a first peak race date (May 7th-ish) but I'm not sure which race I would run there: 1500m or 5,000. I also want to target a race within two weeks of that so I'm still in peak shape so I can achieve both goals. April 16th-ish stands out to me as an open date that doesn't interfere with my coaching responsibilities but that date is a little early. Obviously I will be entering races before that throughout the winter and early spring.

I'm hoping for a mild winter, I hate training interruptions but they are inevitable. My biggest struggle will be resting because I go from work to practice and then I run. By the time I get home its pretty late but I will have to make a concerted effort to do the little things to keep myself healthy!