Was Hill right in calling Mo's races "slow Mo shows"?

I don't think he called them "slow Mo shows" he called them "Mo Shows", clearing implying that the race will be paced to suit Mo's preferences, not top be paced to take Mo out of his comfort zone.

Crazy reeder wrote:

I don't think he called them "slow Mo shows" he called them "Mo Shows", clearing implying that the race will be paced to suit Mo's preferences, not top be paced to take Mo out of his comfort zone.

He said that the Mo shows are typically slow.

Thus "slow Mo shows"

Paraphrasing here...

What part of 4th don't you understand?

Do you really think 12:53/7:32.X/3:28.X Mo can be moved from his comfort zone by 7:28 or 7:30 guys?

To get him out of his comfort zone, and make it count, they have to do more than just run the first half in 3:42 or so and survive, they also have to get savvy Mo to go with them and then either still have something themselves (ie be able to run say 7:24/5) or have a "teammate" that can be charging like crazy at the end of a sub-7:30 race.

Well like I've said before, mo isn't the fastest runner necessarily but he's the best racer, it's a shame Kejelcha wasn't in rio though.

I don't believe Mo would have been close to winning that race yesterday though, 7:32 is about a 12:59 Vdot I believe which was Mo this year, his 12:53 seems like he should be under 7:30 and especially his 3:28 but.... Who knows

&^TRTF%xaci87y wrote:

What part of 4th don't you understand?

Do you really think 12:53/7:32.X/3:28.X Mo can be moved from his comfort zone by 7:28 or 7:30 guys?

To get him out of his comfort zone, and make it count, they have to do more than just run the first half in 3:42 or so and survive, they also have to get savvy Mo to go with them and then either still have something themselves (ie be able to run say 7:24/5) or have a "teammate" that can be charging like crazy at the end of a sub-7:30 race.

Missing the point here?

Hill now has a faster 3000m PB than Mo

He certainly has now earned the right to call Mo's races, "slow Mo shows"

There is however only 0.000001% chance that Hill could actually beat Mo.

But that is not the point.

The point is that (non championship) races with Mo are almost always scheduled to be slow races...

That's a fact.

Farah's 8:03.40 indoor 2 mile equates to a 7:27.73 for 3000. http://www.milesplit.com/calc?time=8%3A03.40&event=2Mile

Fair dinkum.

douglas burke wrote:

Farah's 8:03.40 indoor 2 mile equates to a 7:27.73 for 3000.

http://www.milesplit.com/calc?time=8%3A03.40&event=2Mile

Ryan Hill was 6th in the Olympic Trials 5000, which was won in 13:35. Seems like his expertise in slow races is moderated by his inability to win them.

Mo is a champion and Hill is a spectator.

The ones at the British diamond league events are particularly egregious examples of this as they are usually non diamond counting races featuring only a couple of athletes even likely to get within 5 seconds of Mo and are designed to almost be the Mo Farah victory parade with practically zero risk of defeat.

Maybe the others could learn from the way he structures his season though as they seem to do 4 or more high level 5,000 metre races each and arrive at global championships with quicker seasons bests and personal bests than Farah but much less fresh and unable to respond when Farah pours on the pace over the last 400.

arcticchris wrote:

Maybe the others could learn from the way he structures his season though as they seem to do 4 or more high level 5,000 metre races each and arrive at global championships with quicker seasons bests and personal bests than Farah but much less fresh and unable to respond when Farah pours on the pace over the last 400.

They are doing the right thing. Mo should do what they do. Participate in the actual sport instead of cherrypicking races for his medal count and marketing. Give people a chance to defeat you. That's why Farah is weak.

kvvii wrote:

arcticchris wrote:

Maybe the others could learn from the way he structures his season though as they seem to do 4 or more high level 5,000 metre races each and arrive at global championships with quicker seasons bests and personal bests than Farah but much less fresh and unable to respond when Farah pours on the pace over the last 400.

They are doing the right thing. Mo should do what they do. Participate in the actual sport instead of cherrypicking races for his medal count and marketing. Give people a chance to defeat you. That's why Farah is weak.

Farah is perhaps weak in this regard but his rivals are much weaker for not having the guts to try to run a super hard race and drop Farah in the way Ayana did in the womens events.

I wish he did compete more conventionally on the diamond league circuit much as Usain Bolt largely skips it, indeed the biggest issue with the move from the 6 event golden league to the global diamond league structure is the much reduced amount of true head to head clashes. I bet Gatlin and Bolt have met no more than twice outside major championships in the last 5 years.

13:03 at The Olympics wasn't slow. They tried to break him between 2k and 4K but couldn't so dropped off the pace knowing they were doomed and only hope was a fast kick

arcticchris wrote:

Farah is perhaps weak in this regard but his rivals are much weaker for not having the guts to try to run a super hard race and drop Farah in the way Ayana did in the womens events.

I don't think lack of guts is the issue - his rivals are just not that fast. Ayana dropped the field by smashing the WR. What male runner today is capable of that in the 5K?

As the other poster said, his competitors attempted to drop Mo but they were just not strong enough - like Bekele dropped Lagat and the field in Beijing.

Some day a runner will come along that is capable of running away from Mo, but by then he will be comfortably retired with his legacy intact. Mo was fortunate he did not have to face a runner like Bekele in his prime.

Donger wrote:

13:03 at The Olympics wasn't slow. They tried to break him between 2k and 4K but couldn't so dropped off the pace knowing they were doomed and only hope was a fast kick

And it is always the silly thought that they can out kick him that does them in. They should have stuck to the game plan, and in hindsight, should have started the game plan earlier.

Just this season, Farah ran a 5000m in 12:59, and a 10000m in 26:53, and has run extremely fast 1500m races (3:29 - 3:31) for the last 3 years.

The 5000m Olympic Final was also won (by Farah) in a time that is faster than Hill's 5000m PB.

When Farah wants the race to be fast, it's fast. When he doesn't, somehow nobody (including Hill) ever does anything except go along with that.

Seyta wrote:

[quote]Yggygbybggby wrote:

Just this season, Farah ran a 5000m in 12:59, and a 10000m in 26:53, and has run extremely fast 1500m races (3:29 - 3:31) for the last 3 years.

The 5000m Olympic Final was also won (by Farah) in a time that is faster than Hill's 5000m PB.

When Farah wants the race to be fast, it's fast. When he doesn't, somehow nobody (including Hill) ever does anything except go along with that.

Are you trying to say that Mo is great at time trial type races? He is not...

1) Mo is not the top dog at 1500m, so he is not the one that dictates the splits that the pacesetters must hit. 1500m is not a "Mo Show", so it falls outside of this discussion

2) 12:59 is not "fast" by any means. It's more than 20 seconds slower than the world record. I'm pretty sure that Hill is in sub 13 shape right now. So again, you do not have a point here.

3) the Olympics are never fast. There is not pace setter. Mo has proven to be unbeatable in that type of setting. Thus every championship is a slow Mo show by definition. Again, you do not have a point here.

I have never said that Hill had the ability to beat Mo. He does not (well at this point in their respective careers). What Hill has is a faster 3000m PB than Mo (yes, Mo has a faster 1500, mile, 2 mile, 5000...) than Hill. But one of them is a double/double Olympic gold medalist and the other one is not even an Olympian. There is no way that Hill should have any PB faster than Mo. But he does, because Mo does not like fast races.

I was addressing your point of claiming that Hill has "earned the right" to call Mo's races slow.

Hill has not earned the qualifications to that, the reason being his context when he said it.

Here on LR, there are dozens (if not hundreds) of posters who complain that Farah runs his races slowly, but the context of that is almost always in comparison to incredibly fast races (12:40s or lower) by Gebrselassie, Komen, Bekele, Tergat, and a handful of other East Africans. In fact, you are claiming Mo to be slow in that context with your own post, which is accurate. When it's not that sort of context, usually it's also in reference to the fact that Farah has a 5000m PB of 12:53, yet never seems to approach that in paced races.

The context HILL's comment though, was that Hill was asked what he was expecting of the upcoming 5000m race in London. Hill responded by saying that he wasn't expecting it to be quick because those "Mo Shows" typically don't go very fast, and continued by saying that it would be good for him, because then he could still be in contention the whole way through.

Fast forward one week. Farah runs 12:59, Hill isn't in contention at all, running a 13:15. Fast forward to the Olympics, and the race is faster than Hill's PB.

Yes, 12:59 and 13:03 are slow in comparison to Bekele. However, that was not Hill's context. Hill's claim was that Farah's races are slow in comparison to his own abilities, which is not true at all. Again, Hill absolutely has the qualifications to say "Oh, Farah's races are much slower than Bekele's old races". But he is NOT qualified to say "Oh, Farah's races are slow relative to my own abilities, allowing me to stay in the mix". Hell, Farah and Hill have races at least 3-4 times, and Hill has NEVER been in the mix in any of those races.

The fact that Hill has run a decent 3000m time does not change that.

Yes it does

He now has a faster PB than Mo over 3000m

He is still not the runner that Mo is (probably will never be either), but that's another issue.