Steve Magness: Would track be better off without records?

I like having times as a way of comparing efforts. But I completely agree. Racing is what makes track a sport--not times.

I'm not sure which offends me more, the dumb ideas or the awful, incoherent, and muddled style of writing.

Magness is a sock puppet of the brojos to make them appear knowledgeable and erudite.

Track would be better off without Steve Magness

Magness thinks too highly of himself. Both himself and David Torrence liked a pic of the of them with the caption of "the saviours of track meet up"

Fu*king clowns. They've both made huge damage to the anti doping fight by blowing the whistle with no evidence at all to back it up thus giving those under suspicion the chance to get out in time.

Not to mention Magness happily trafficking drugs to Europe and only mentioning it after being sacked by the NOP

what a hero

They probably liked the joke that they were the saviors of track meet up , or whatever it was. Not everybody is humorless.

Marco YOLO wrote:

Track would be better off without Steve Magness

I came here to post this ^ word for word.

Magness is absolutely right. DL distance races are unwatchable. Rabbits should never be used in premier competitions.

I disagree. I don't like tactical championship races where everyone jogs all but the last lap. Yes, the last lap is exciting but the rest of the race is a waste. Might as well just watch a 400.

If you get a race that is rabbited, or not, with several fast guys that want a record, then you have an exciting race from beginning to end. If you only have 1 runner that is capable of a record and a bunch of scrubs then I agree that is not quite as exciting. BUT, even in that race every single lap is important.

Too bad not every championship race is executed like the 2012 Olympic 800m.

He needs to focus on actually registering for this year's turkey trot.

Only took 3 posts for the trolls to show up.

No, I think we should go one step further.

We should base our entire efforts on trying to get our sport to be as close to the Kentucky Derby as possible. The Kentucky Derby and NASCAR represent the pinnacle of what sport should be and are loved worldwide by billions. Track should aspire to be as much like those sports as possible.

Give the runners horses and cars, I say.

Have every runner sing the American national anthem before running also. Regardless of nationality.

Magness is totally right. Just enjoy the race

smile wrote:

Only took 3 posts for the trolls to show up.

Well, I am suspect that one of the trolls actually started the thread, pretending to be a neutral party, as a way to set up their tired and hateful replies. I wonder if they have a reminder on their calendars to attack him every month or so, like any other regular task they do for their employer.

joho wrote:

I disagree. I don't like tactical championship races where everyone jogs all but the last lap. Yes, the last lap is exciting but the rest of the race is a waste. Might as well just watch a 400.

If you get a race that is rabbited, or not, with several fast guys that want a record, then you have an exciting race from beginning to end. If you only have 1 runner that is capable of a record and a bunch of scrubs then I agree that is not quite as exciting. BUT, even in that race every single lap is important.

Too bad not every championship race is executed like the 2012 Olympic 800m.

Rabbited races are boring because 3/4 of the race is predictable. People get into position 200m in, stay there for 3/4 of the race and then try and kick. You could watch the first 200 of a DL 5k, go oh those people are in good position then come back for the last 1k.

Unrabbited races are exciting because ayana might take off with 3k to go, ben true might mage a big move with a mile to go (Des Moines 2013) or they might leave until the last lap.

Rudisha might go hard from the gun or he might take the lead and then slow things down.

Steve Magness needs to request a raise. He is by and far the most up and coming young distance coach. He helped spill the Nike beans on doping.

joho wrote:

I disagree. I don't like tactical championship races where everyone jogs all but the last lap. Yes, the last lap is exciting but the rest of the race is a waste. Might as well just watch a 400.

If you get a race that is rabbited, or not, with several fast guys that want a record, then you have an exciting race from beginning to end. If you only have 1 runner that is capable of a record and a bunch of scrubs then I agree that is not quite as exciting. BUT, even in that race every single lap is important.

Too bad not every championship race is executed like the 2012 Olympic 800m.

I hear a lot of people on Letsrun complain about "jogging until the last lap," but I can't recall ever actually seeing such a race. The break always happens much earlier than that.

As for the supposed excitement of every lap in a rabbited race, I don't understand how it's exciting when you know what's going to happen for 90% of the race. When people go with the rabbit there's no uncertainty because nobody is going to make a move. When the rabbit is done, usually late in the race, either the runners are able to hold the pace or not. There are limited permutations. In an unrabbited race, anything can happen at any time. And most importantly, what happens depends on the decisions of the competitors. In rabbited races, the competitors are totally passive. They might as well be a pair of lungs and a pair of legs. They aren't really competing against each other.

Regarding the 2012 800 meter final, that was exciting because one of the world's greatest athletes was at the peak of his powers and run a stunning world record. But if you take away the clock and the commentary, it wasn't that great of a race from a spectator's perspective. The greatest 800 meter race I've ever seen, hands down, was at the U.S. Trials in 2008. London doesn't hold a candle. Only the record made London exciting. Magness' point was that records are by definition rare. If racing is about time, then 99% of races cease to be athletic competitions; they become, instead, failed endeavors.

The Kentucky derby and NASCAR aren't dependent on athletic exertion, while they certainly aren't easy, it takes much more effort to compete in a sport like running/football/soccer etc. That is why times don't matter. As for cycling, the tour changes each year, so it would be impossible to compare times, kind of like comparing times of XC courses, if the courses were different distances as well.

Yes Steve, when people are trying to break records, they usually fail more often than not because that would mean they were the best ever in that category. How many people have broken a meaningful record more times than they haven't? I can answer that, not a single person ever.

And if he is referring to how people put so much emphasis on time, how the fvck are people not capable of records going to measure progress? Meets change very year, you can't go to the same ones each year, people get injured, people change the meets they go to and on and on and on. There are so many variables affecting meets that placing means almost nothing. Placing is placed at an extreme importance over time only in big XC invites/championships because most teams go to the same meets and comparing times from different XC courses is pointless.

Rabbits should only be allowed for record attempts, and the reason they help is because they 1. Break the wind, allowing the runner to exert less energy 2. Let the runner focus solely on effort, and not have to worry about hitting exact splits. Rabbits aren't a problem. If you zone out trying to break a record, you won't break it, you still need to be aware of what's going on, maybe the pacer is a little quick or a little slow and you need to know where you are at at all times.

What is he even saying? That running a tactical race is noble and that a jog fest isn't? No runner is gutless for running a tactical race in a championship setting, but if that is all they do in all other races, then there's a problem.

If the goal is to win and time doesn't matter (i.e. World champs/olympics/Oly trials/WC trials), a jog fest isn't bad, although I prefer a hard wire to wire for entertainment, it's very impractical for a runner to go all out in every race for meets with rounds since they will be more fatigued in the final. Here's how it is: the top runners expected to win/advance in a field of a race listed above believe strongly either due to races during the season and or past accomplishments that no matter what anyone does in the race, slow or suicidal pace, they are the best and will win. They would prefer a slower pace because they are already tired from rounds, are at the end of a season of hard racing, or don't want to kill themselves for future rounds/the finals. Therefore they will just let the race play out, and since everyone else wants a chance to move on in the next round, the race will almost always be tactical. Thus, it is the job of an underdog in the field to force the pace if they want a fast race, letting the race play out is not a luxury they have earned yet.

A better analogy for why tactical races are bad outside of championship races: Most sports games come down to the final quarter as the 4th quarter/2nd half/3rd period is the most crucial time in game, and often those who perform the best in these moments are the ones who win. What makes sports games so great is that you know every player is going all out every play and that when two teams play 45 minutes of football and are only separated by 3 points, they are truly fighting for every inch. Runners fight hard for every millisecond and inch in a hard race wire to wire, this is the same level of competition. Imagine if in the NFL teams didn't try as hard and just played very conservatively so they didn't turn the ball over and just punted back and forth for 3 quarters, and then played the 4th quarter all out. No one would watch that and there wouldn't be any point in playing more than the last quarter.

There are also very few sports that need all out effort as much as running, even tactical races are tiring. Sports like hockey/football/basketball are something like a Jim Ryun HS workout, 40x400 but not all out each rep. Example: Hockey players play 20 minutes a game max. That's 6-7 minutes per period, and not all of that is spent skating at a high level, meaning they get about 3x the rest of the time they play, plus two 20 minute breaks between periods, plus TV timeouts, plus stoppages for penalties, icing and fights.

I am a firm believer that tactical racing is for championships only, and that every other race that isn't a rust buster or being run as a workout, should be an all out effort trying for a season best or personal best. However, if you are doing a rust buster or workout, you should be entering in a low key meet for your ability.

tl;dr Steve Magness is a fvcking idiot.

HardLoper wrote:

Magness is totally right. Just enjoy the race

Why did he then pace one of his girls himself? In a bleeding turkey trot.