Harvard's Transgender Swimmer

Any Which Way But Loose wrote:

Look at their times...

NEVER qualifying for the boys state.

NEVER...

EVER...

Depends on the state. If it's a small state, yes. In CT there are class meets where schools of the same size compete, then the top finishers from the class meets go on to the state open. 2:00 is fast enough to qualify for the class meets and every once in a while could qualify for the state open by placing high in a small class.

I graduated the same year as Sarah Bowman, she ran faster than I did at regionals (qualifier for state), and I made it there, so it happens.

Also 2:10 is the 53rd fastest time for girls so far this year. 1:52 is the 59th fastest boy time. So a girls 2:10 is actually viewed as better.

Insanity.

Where does he/she/it poop?

RichE wrote:

The interview on yesterday's homepage about Semenya would be enlightening to this thread.

Semenya is intersex. It's a different thing entirely. Not the same scenario as a guy who decides to become a female and then join a women's team.

Not Really wrote:

RichE wrote:

The interview on yesterday's homepage about Semenya would be enlightening to this thread.

Semenya is intersex. It's a different thing entirely. Not the same scenario as a guy who decides to become a female and then join a women's team.

^^ clearly did not read the article...the author of which is MtF trans.

dfasfadsf wrote:

Not Really wrote:

Semenya is intersex. It's a different thing entirely. Not the same scenario as a guy who decides to become a female and then join a women's team.

^^ clearly did not read the article...the author of which is MtF trans.

I can admit when I am wrong. You are correct that it is very enlightening. Thank you.

Crete runner wrote:

A talent like Cain or Aragon could occasionally qualify for state in co-ed sports at the high school level, but overall girls would be crushed by most males.

What state do you live in? Neither of those athletes would come close to the state cuts in track where I live.

Not Gonna Happen wrote:

Making sports "fair" is the problem. Some people are saying it's unfair for trans athletes to compete. Next, it will be tight monitoring of testosterone levels in females.

maybe some sports would evolve to where certain positions are filled by women. Steph Curry is basically a woman when he stands next to Kevin Durant, but both are phenomenal players

"Fairness" in the competition itself is not why we have women's sports. The whole point of having a separate division for women is to give half the population an opportunity to compete that they otherwise would not have because it is patently obvious that they cannot compete with men (other than a couple of outliers who could be contributors on a men's team but never a star).

biod wrote:

Ftardalert... wrote:

Except height has nothing to do with being man or woman. being 7 foot tall doesn't given you the ability to be faster, stronger or a higher vertical. It just means you're taller.

Wow. Just wow. You win the Biggest Idiot Of the Day award.

Except biggest idiot has nothing to do with relative intelligence or lack thereof. Being the biggest idiot doesn't give you the inability to apply reason and logic any more than another idiot. It just means you are taller.

Here in VA, Weini Kelati crushed the men's state Qualifying standard in the 3200 by almost 10 seconds......However she would be outside of the top 10 at the state meet overall....Even for top notch talents, this is ridiculous.

Not gonna happen wrote:

There is already a precedent of a male basketball player transitioning and playing as female:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfGnspMWpUY

Seriously though, every one of these debates just shows that we should not have sports divided into two genders. Many have suggested we add an "Intersex" division, but I suggest we just have co-ed sports. Sure, fewer females will make college and pro teams, but I would argue that no sport would suffer for that.

If you think that is either sexist or bad for sports at all, then I would ask if you think that there should be women's football, or why softball isn't as popular as baseball.

There already is women's football. Professional as well and not the bikini league.

Every couple of years you hear about one of the girls being invited to try out for an arena team but I don't think any of them have made it yet.

Not Gonna Happen wrote:

Making sports "fair" is the problem. Some people are saying it's unfair for trans athletes to compete. Next, it will be tight monitoring of testosterone levels in females.

maybe some sports would evolve to where certain positions are filled by women. Steph Curry is basically a woman when he stands next to Kevin Durant, but both are phenomenal players

What about tighter monitoring of testosterone in Males? Younger men are going to have more than older men. Will older men be allowed to take testosterone to match the levels of younger men to stay on a level playing field?

TimeCalculator wrote:

Crete runner wrote:

A talent like Cain or Aragon could occasionally qualify for state in co-ed sports at the high school level, but overall girls would be crushed by most males.

What state do you live in? Neither of those athletes would come close to the state cuts in track where I live.

Aragon lives in Montana, one of the smallest states and goes to a large school there (AA class). Boys AA state meet time standards are:

800 - 2:01.00

1600 - 4:34.00

3200 - 10:04.00

The top 6 at the Division meet also qualify for state. That meet for Aragon happened last week and 6th place finishers were:

800 - 2:01.10

1600 - 4:37.75

3200 - 9:52.78

Aragon only ran the 400 (winning in 57.12) and presumably the 4x400 which her team won in 4:01.39.

Props to you. Very very rare on this site, despite the fact that it's anonymous.

Not Really wrote:

dfasfadsf wrote:

^^ clearly did not read the article...the author of which is MtF trans.

I can admit when I am wrong. You are correct that it is very enlightening. Thank you.

We had a similar situation at the middle school I teach and coach at in the SF Bay Area. An 8th grader was born female but identified with male. He played on the girls athletics team until 8th grade when he decided to officially change his name and gender identification. In 8th grade he changed in boys locker room and made one of the boys athletic teams but was cut from a few of the sports he had previous made when trying out for the girls teams. We don't have a pool, so there is no swimming in PE or athletics so the issue about changing into and out of a suit in the locker room never came up. I believe he used the boys restroom around school as well. I never heard one complaint or negative comment from the other students about anything regarding him. He is a great kid and is doing well in HS but did not make any of the boys athletic teams.

MVRunner wrote:

2:08, I'd say. Female world record is 13 seconds slower than male, add 1 second for proportionally slower times at the 1:52 level, add 2 seconds for the legitimate risk that the female WR was drug-aided.

Men's can be drug aided to.

It is 12.37 slower than then men's record.

If you are using %s it would be 12 & 1/4% slower.

It isn't quite on par with the men's record though in terms of potential.

12% slower than 1:52 is about 2:05.5

SoCal16 wrote:

I would like to ask you, how is it fair that a female who is genetically weaker and slower compete against a male?

I am a male. There are many males whom I am genetically weaker and slower than, yet I still compete against them.

To start with, if we made college sports co-ed there would be next to zero women playing college sports. You might get a freakishly gifted female soccer player or tennis player or something, but in track and field and other objective Olympic sports there would be no women participating. So that needs to be taken off the table.

This woman talked about in the article should not be allowed on the men's team simply on the grounds that she is not fast enough. You want to be treated equally as a man.. then you aren't fast enough like the hundreds of other guys at Harvard who probably would have loved to be on the swim team. Add to this the fact that many transgender athletes would be on hormones which are an explicit violation of PED rules.

The real dilemma is when you have male athletes transitioning to female. The reality is that to let an athlete who transitioned from a post-pubescent man would be extremely unfair to biologically female athletes. For some reason this obvious fact is too much for the PC cause du jour people. As to whether female athletes who transitioned before puberty should be allowed is another question altogether. That being said, if our society returns to sanity this won't be an issue as giving hormones to a pre-pubescent child will then rightfully be viewed as child abuse at worst or harmful neglect at best.

A couple things wrote:

To start with, if we made college sports co-ed there would be next to zero women playing college sports. You might get a freakishly gifted female soccer player or tennis player or something, but in track and field and other objective Olympic sports there would be no women participating. So that needs to be taken off the table.

In track and field, loads of people train hard and compete and know that they will not make it to the Olypmics. Look at all the 29 minute or 28 minute 10k runners from Kenya or the US for example. Just because someone has no chance of making it to the Olympics does not mean that they would not particiapte in the sport.

Having open or co ed sports would be more reflective of the equal rights we have in most other areas in today's society (equal rights for jobs, voting etc ..).