Does Renato Canova TRULY Believe What He Says About PEDs?

All the Ethiopian runners busted, didn't took Meldonium for fun, but for "fashion".

Meldonium increases (looking at what the Company says) endurance in patients with angina pectoris, it's difficult can increase endurance in somebody running 2:05. Meldonium increases exercise tolerance, but it's difficult to increase the tolerance of somebody running 4 times 1600m with 4'30" recovery in 3'56" - 3'59" - 3'58" and 3'57". Meldonium reduces the recovery time, but we are not in Tour de France, and the best athletes can recover also 3-4 days before having the next training of high quality (so, recovery time is not a limiting factor for runners of middle and long distance).

Meldonium has also an action to reduce the mechanism of fatty acids, increasing the glycolitic activity, and this is something AGAINST what we try to achieve with Marathon runners, that is the optimization of the utilization of fatty acids, in order to preserve the tank of glycogen for longer time.

For all your other observations, I agree with you. WADA must explain why Meldonium is banned. Western Countries must explain why this pharmac, if so effective, is not accepted in our system (maybe because too cheap ?).

But I think this is not part of a conflict between Western and Eastern Countries, more simply is another way WADA uses for showing strength against doping, also before knowing exactly the effects of the pharmac on athletes of different disciplines.

Don't forget antidoping is today one of the biggest businesses there are in the sport.

But I continue to think that the first step is to fight against the widespread mentality that everybody wants to do physical activity needs every kind of support, because his own forces are not enough. This is what I fight everyday, so you are completely wrong when you think I'm a doping apologist. The opposite, I don't believe (blood) doping can produce real effects, if you are able to go in hard and proper training with full motivation and great mental stimuli : there is no doping able to replace what you lose in self confidence when accept to be helped by external factors.

Renato, how do you account for the fact that the male distance records were all smashed by many people in the 1990s when epo arrived on the scene and was untestable?

Renato.Thank you for the explanation. Much appreciated and seemingly thoughtful. It's cool you take the time to share your experience on LetsrunI always find myself seeing the logic in your argument but there is one MASSIVE problem:you sound TOO SURE of your arguments. You admit yourself that studies have not been done on 'elite' athletes so they are bogus to apply to them. So why not be more objective and consider, like @wtfunny said below, that there could exist AT VERY LEAST, a negligable benefit to elites.Until you do that, I will believe that you have tested these PEDs on your athletes, or know first hand of the effects that they have on other elites you have access to. There's no other explanation than that based on all of you sureness espoused in these forums. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO KNOW ASIDE FROM TESTING ON ELITES. Either you know, or are just too Catholic with your blind faith. (i just spent 20 minutes gathering links on threads where you claim this, and have put them in a file. they are very numerous and I assure you when/if you get associated with cheating, we will roast you with these adamant claims and provide zero support)I personally feel it can give you a much better benefit than negligable (see Miguel Indurain, Lance Armstrong, Norwegian XC skiers who are freak athletes genetically to begin with, and took those PEDs to compete and win internationally)we can't trust your arguments just because you have coached great athletes to successes. sorry.i hope i'm wrong, but your argument is worthless and not scientifically tested

wtfunny wrote:

Renato

I follow what you're saying, and I think it has some validity. But you're also assuming that with elite athletes, the glass is 100% full. Assume it's not, and that's it's 95% full. No human being is ever "100%".

They're not looking for a massive benefit; even a tiny, negligible difference in performance is a huge benefit to a professional athlete. You're arguing, effectively, that they receive zero benefit, and I'd suggest it's more likely that while they might receive a smaller benefit, even a very small benefit, they'd still receive SOME benefit. And in the world of elite athletes, even the tiniest of margins is worth pursuing.

IMO.

Meldonium reduces the recovery time, but we are not in Tour de France, and the best athletes can recover also 3-4 days before having the next training of high quality (so, recovery time is not a limiting factor for runners of middle and long distance).

I have to disagree with this. Recovery is always important for any distance and an athlete who recovers faster enjoys a great training advantage. Faster recovery also aids in keeping an athlete psychologically fresh.

Your other points are very good. But if Meldonium can help an elite athlete improve even 1% that can be enough to produce a victory when competing at a high level.

It's not difficult with drugs. The guy will then run 3:55 for all of the reps and need less recovery.

And the recovery between workouts will be reduced from 3-4 days to 2.

Is Jon Orange your illegitimate son?

jjjjjj wrote:

Renato, how do you account for the fact that the male distance records were all smashed by many people in the 1990s when epo arrived on the scene and was untestable?

Not alone this phenomenon - the rise of east african track talent coincided precisely with the introduction of EPO

Hordes of East Africans are now apparently running daily in Iten however no more track distance talent to match the tergats, gebresellasies, noah ngenys, Daniel komens, Bernard lagats has emerged since the gradual clampdown on blood doping

All of the Kenyan track distance records date back to the early 2000s

just sayin wrote:

I think a very good point has been made on this thread

A counter-argument to renatos claims

"Has there ever been an elite athlete busted for EPO who didn't benefit from its use"

Where it falls down is the lack of positives for East Africans which Renatos assertions pertain to

You are leaving out the "IAAF effect." Which unlucky doper did the IAAF pick out of the herd? Which lucky doper bribed their way out of a positive? Another regional issue is National federation corruption.

If there was some confidence the sport's anti-doping program was transparent and functioned rationally, you have a very good question. Until then, it's a moot point.

EPO gained use in sports in the early 1990s. Said Aouita broke 13min for 5000m in 1987 and held that record for years but is now well over 200th on the all time list (and there is plenty of speculation about his drug use). Why have so many run so much faster? Is there a correlation between EPO use and a precipitous drop in 5000m and 10000m times? Why have sub 12:50 times become almost non-existent since a reliable test for EPO was introduced?

It appears that Meldonium became available to athletes around 2005. Lets look at the All Time Marathon list. Do you notice anything unusual there? A shocking number of the top times have been run since then. Khalid Khannouchi was unbeatable and the world record holder and now is poised to fall out of the top 100, almost 3min behind #1. And, yes he was possibly on drugs too.

It will be interesting to see this year what the top times are in the Marathon now that Meldonium is banned. I suspect that it will be a lackluster year by comparison, much like track times after the EPO test became effective.

This is circumstantial, but in science correlations matter. That is what this really boils down to: science. It is not an opinion or educated guess. Canova knows this. It is why he does blood testing on his athletes. Why test if you don't plan to manipulate the blood? It would be a waste of money and time.

There is absolutely no mistake on my behalf; I pointed out that top class athletes are not in perfect health and have more health problems than "normal people" in their 20s and 30s. What you post does not refute this at all and now you keep on making mistakes by using models of the body that are far from reality. Here you have created a false dichotomy between the musculoskeletal system and other systems in the body when in fact all systems of the body are impacted by intense training. Why do things such as quality of sleep, nutrition, life stress levels matter more and more the higher the level of training? Because the entire body ("engine", hormonal, nervous systems, cardio vascular systems etc..) is under stress and recovering from the stress is essential to maintain training at a high level.

I agree with you that abuse of doping may carry long term risks in health. This may be why some athletes sought "expert" medical advice on doping eg Armstrong with Ferrari - to reduce the risks.

You ask for scientific data in what you call ELITE (and your defenition of ELITE is now changing) athletes for evidence that EPO does work in elites. Again this sort of study is impossible because EPO for now is illegal in sports. The only that can be done is look at documented cases where top level athletes have been caught for EPO use if there is data available.

I have given you an interesting example of an Olympic athlete who ran 2h 08 for the marathon who was born and who trained at altitude (do you think that there are no mountains in France or that altitude training can only take place in Kenya?) where we have blood values monitored by the French federation and related performances. The blood values and EPO use seemed to correlate well with improved performance up to 2h 08 mins in the marathon. I agree that is just one example but it is an interesting one as there is not much documentation in this area.

Your come back to this example seems to be that I am being ridiculous and that 2h 08 is very different from 2h 06 mins (but that 2h06 is not so different from the 2h 2 mins 57 sec WR as you lump them together as ELITE?) and that the athlete was of poor calibre because he is ranked in the top 0.X% performance of all time rather than the top 0.Y% of all time performances. None of this gives us any reason to believe that a 2h 08 min marathon runner is vastly different from a 2h 06 min marathon runner.

You then say that Baldini was worth much faster than his 2h 07min 22 sec pb when he ran this in a well paced race finishing 5th in the 2006 London marathon (Baldini's pacing in this race was superb in fact).

If we look at Abraham Kiprotich in more detail we see that he ran his PB of 2h 08 mins 33 sec when he WON the Daegu marathon under bad weather conditions with less than ideal pacing:

From the report:

“I was planning to finish in around 2:06 today, and I told the pacemakers repeatedly to pick up the pace, but we had strong wind against us at that final stage of the race,” commented Kiprotich.

Note also that in 3rd place was a 2h 07 min 41 Ethiopian runner Debebe Tolossa who was well beaten by Kiprotich.

With all this we can very easily and justifiably apply the logic that you have applied to Baldini and say that in fact Kiprotich he was worth considerably faster than his PB of 2h 08 mins 33 secs and that he is a much better performer than you are giving him credit for and he could be even classified as "Elite" even by your definition.

Finally note that Kiprotich was competing under the French Federation where he was being surveyed medically to monitor for EPO use. Would he have run much faster if he was competing under a federation with less strict doping surveillance where he would have been able to use EPO as much as he wanted?

I am addressing this again because you are being (maybe unknowingly) misleading: just because someone is not in Kenya does not mean that they are not training at altitude.

Are you saying that the best perfomances are inversely correlated with the level Hct and Hb?

In any case this point does not support your argument that EPO does not work in endurance running. I will try to explain again:

For the sake of your argument, we will accept what you say that athletes train well at high altitude and that their hematocrit/Hb goes down and their performance goes up. This is a response to altitude due to mainly increases in plasma volume. It does not prove that EPO should not work.

If you have two given "identical" athletes train at altitude watch their Hct/Hb go down and training performance level go up. Now you take one of these athletes after the altitude training and then raise their Hct/Hb with EPO or blood doping but not even up to his level of prealtitude training. Will this athlete now be able to perform better than the athlete who did the same training but who now has a lower Hct/Hb?

You have to look much deeper than just saying that an athletes Hb/HCT will go down with training/improved performance therefore EPO does not work.

Renato Canova wrote:

But I continue to think that the first step is to fight against the widespread mentality that everybody wants to do physical activity needs every kind of support, because his own forces are not enough.

He who has that mentality is but a featherless biped.

He who has that mentality deals on the level of the MINERAL SOUL. Indeed the human body is in some ways like a mineral, the properties of which are determined by its chemical composition.

However the good coach must deal on the level of the VEGETABLE SOUL. You know that if you want an olive tree to grow a branch in a particular place, you make a cut of a particular size and depth--not too much, not too little--and the tree responds by starting new growth there. The good coach knows just how much and of what type of training to inflict upon the athlete to cause the desired growth in athletic performance, and also knows that this growth is a expression of the VEGETABLE SOUL.

The good coach also must deal on the level of the ANIMAL SOUL. My eminent colleague Plato has much praise for the spirited horse, the one who resists being tamed or beaten in a race, and the good coach knows how to manage animal spirits. As the Ancient Marathoner once wrote, "Arthur Lydiard. He made us feel 10 feet tall. I think this is his true value as a coach. There was no one in that race as good as us, or so he made it seem."

But it is the excellent coach only who even knows of the existence of the RATIONAL SOUL, let alone attempts to cultivate it. If your LetsRun interlocutors need an introduction to the RATIONAL SOUL, one place to start would be the song "If I Follow My Mind", by Mr. Jimmy Cliff.

I see my words look quite stilted. I will go back to theoria. Hail and farewell, Renato.

just sayin wrote:

Hordes of East Africans are now apparently running daily in Iten however no more track distance talent to match the tergats, gebresellasies, noah ngenys, Daniel komens, Bernard lagats has emerged since the gradual clampdown on blood doping

All of the Kenyan track distance records date back to the early 2000s

David Rudisha

Asbel Kiprop

Silas Kiplagat

Isiah Koech

You claim that results have dropped, though the above have all run well into the world all-time lists. And that's not even speaking about the marathon.

Scientologyist wrote:

It appears that Meldonium became available to athletes around 2005.

What's this based on? It's been produced since the 1970s.

I would add that there's nowhere as much money in the athletics circuit as there was 20 years ago. Quality pacemaking is harder to come by at these reduced rates.

This has been a surprisingly good three to read.

I find the EPO does not work argument lacking but also almost insulting. We know it can never be tested and the elite definition is just arbitrary. When I read this, I am reminded of a person putting off a policy or political decision by insisting a subject needs more study when the issue is already clear. At this point, I expect / hope the WMM refuses to pay anyone an appearance (or even pacing fee) who is not fully in a bio passport program and just hope the Olympics have a chance at being clean. I basically ignore all second tier HM and Marathon times,

Just to be clear, Mr. C is saying that Belayneh Densimo was not elite because host time is now outside of the top 100. I am starting to take these arguments a lot less seriously.

Agree on Rudisha and Kiprop. The others are father down the lists. Koech is 10 seconds off the 5000 WR. I think you missed the point on the marathon. The allegation is that most doping went to the half and full marathon.

Left Said Fred wrote:

just sayin wrote:

Hordes of East Africans are now apparently running daily in Iten however no more track distance talent to match the tergats, gebresellasies, noah ngenys, Daniel komens, Bernard lagats has emerged since the gradual clampdown on blood doping

All of the Kenyan track distance records date back to the early 2000s

David Rudisha

Asbel Kiprop

Silas Kiplagat

Isiah Koech

You claim that results have dropped, though the above have all run well into the world all-time lists. And that's not even speaking about the marathon.

You are not very clever, if don't understand that everybody is son of his period.

Of course, every world record holder was elite IN THAT TIME, and we need to see his training and (if you think doping had some important role AT THAT TIME) the pharmacological aid he had.

But now we are in 2016, and, yes, an athlete running as Dinsamo today is not real elite. On the other side, can be easy to suppose that Belayne Dinsamo edition 2016, with the change of training system, the change of mentality about the speed of the race, the change of organization for the races and the change of the value of the field (Dinsamo ran practically alone), could be one of the athletes running under 2:04.

So, try to use your little brain, before writing some stupid thing.

Yup yup wrote:

Agree on Rudisha and Kiprop. The others are father down the lists. Koech is 10 seconds off the 5000 WR.

I think you missed the point on the marathon. The allegation is that most doping went to the half and full marathon.

What are you using for a standard? If we look at the all-time Kenyan 1500m list, there are five men that have broken 3:29:00 and they set their PBs in years 2000, 2001, 2014 (two of them) and 2015. And of the 13 Kenyans to have broken 3:30.00, six of them have done so in the last four years. I'm not sure how you consider Ngeny to be a super talent and not offer the same description to Silas Kiplagat when Kiplagat's PB is faster than Ngeny's.

And if the Kenyans are still performing at a superhuman level, just in a different event group, how has that shift been caused by changes in drug testing? It's not as if the address of the camp changes whether you're a 1500m man or a marathon runner.

I answer your questions without any problem.

1) I don't know anything about the effects of EPO on my athletes, since never anybody of them used this substance. However, I had the opportunity to speak with some athlete busted for EPO (like Kisorio and Rita Jeptoo), and they told me took EPO, the first because after finishing Boston Marathon practically jogging supposed without EPO couldn't do the volume and the intensity in training necessary for running 2:05, the second because a doctor in Kapsabet explained she could recover faster her training.

Kisorio, after taking EPO for about 2 months, ran the WORST performance of his career in National Championships 2010 in 10000m, when there was the antidoping control and he was positive (so his feeling was not better than before taking EPO).

Rita didn't use EPO (this is what she told me) since June 2014, when she started to look at some aid, having the target to win the jackpot (she already had won Boston).

So, in both the cases EPO didn't work, if we have to believe in what they say. Of course, somebody can argue that they are liars, and took EPO from the beginning of their career. I personally believe in what they told me, because Kisorio didn't have any reason for telling me something wrong, and Rita was my athlete from the beginning of her career in 1999, till the end of 2006, and I never had some other athlete hard working as Rita herself.

2) Like in mathematics, the THEOREM that EPO doesn't work has, for me, a demonstration "proof of contradiction" : if I had athletes bettering the WR without taking anything (I repeat, also legal), why I have to suppose that, taking something, they could run better ? If I had some athlete totally clean at the top of some event, why I have to believe that the athletes behind must be doped ?

So, where there is not DIRECT proof, the only things are suppositions, and I feel SURE of my thesis because of the "proves of contradiction" I have.

3) This is not for you, but for another poster, who explains the recovery time is very important in training.

It's funny that somebody never working with top athletes can explain what is important for running fast, and what isn't important.

So, probably, with my athletes winning 42 medals in WCh and having at the moment 6 World Record, probably I did something wrong, looking at the specific intensity of training, with long and complete recovery in between.

Probably I did something wrong with Abel Kirui when he won WCh in Daegu with 14 days off during the last two months, because a knee injury which I had to manage together his training.

Probably I did something wrong when Shaheen bettered th WR in Bruxelles, using one training session of high intensity (and also extension) every 5 days only.

I'm sure that Always I do something not wrong, but that can be done better, and that's the reason because I continue to search in training new solutions for increasing the level of all the qualities involved in one event.

And this the reason because I don't believe in the effect of EPO with athletes of top talent, who accept to work with me at the max level, with total focus and committment for their targets.

Instead, I think EPO can be a shortcut for who doesn't have the same motivation, and doesn't want to experiment something different from his traditional training, but in this case these athletes can improve their PB, but NEVER can reach their max potential, because don't have the mental characteristics for being real Champions.

Under scientific point of view, there are too many factors in the darkness when we speak about systems for enhancing the performances.

We have some DIRECT proof about the effects of some doping : for example, it's acclarated that with EPO and similars we can raise the level of Hb anf Hct.

But the reason because some athlete is able to improve his times till the top of the world, is not in the level of Hb and Hct.

We have too many components, which works together, and for some component able to produce advantages we have other components producing some disandvantage.

At the end, the performance is the product of a balance within bioenergetic and metabolic system, neuroendocrinal system, biomechanics, mental level, motivation and enviroment.

I like somebody asking a different question : "Taking EPO, which are the problems we go to create in the body" ? Because of sure when we introduce some pharmac in our body there is some activity of compensation, since we go to change the Equilibrium between several components.

One, for example, is the increase of viscosity.

But we can reduce the viscosity using some pharmac able to dilue the blood.

Which is the reaction of the body to this new pharmac ?

And, if we can increase the total blood volume in the body of some athlete of top level during 3-4 months of tough aerobic training (about 1 and half liter more), the same thing can happen also if the athletes take EPO ?

And, in this case, when he has to take EPO ? At the beginning of his training (but in this case the blood density becomes higher, and he can't be able to produce this 1 and half liter of blood more), or at the end, when he can already have this 1 and half liter of more blood in his body ?

And somebody can understand the difference between the REACTION of the body for a new stimulus (the case of athletes going from sea level to altitude), producing, not Always, but in 80% of cases, some increase in the number of reticolocytes (medulla is stimulated to produce new cells), and the ADAPTATIONS of people born and living and training in the same conditions ?

So, if for athletes going altitude we can speak about an ANSWER to some new stimulus, for athletes living and training in those conditions which is the advantage ?

With EPO we can increase the ability to transport Oxygen. But, before thinking to transport some material, we must have the material, and we can see a big difference in the affinity between Hb and Oxygen, among top athletes of altitude, and athletes at sea level.

So, the athletes living and training in altitude develop a higher affinity, in order to have in altitude the same quantity of Oxygen the other have at sea level, and, of course, when they go sea level for some competition, they can have MORE OXYGEN than the athletes of sea level, because their system was able to develop the ability to catch the gas from the air.

The velocity of blood circulation is the same for arterial blood, transporting oxygen and "fuel" to muscle fibers, and venous blood, which carries deoxygenated blood for tissues back to the heart, but when we are able to increase the velocity of circulation we are also able to remove the effects of "rubbish" produced by the activity in the fibers faster, and if we reduce the velocity of circulation because of higher viscosity, we reduce also the velocity of elimination of the products of fatigue.

We have really too many points to discuss, which in many cases depends on individual factors, for having a certainty in one direction or in the other.

So, while I'm sure EPO can help the most part of athletes to increase their PB, I continue to think that can't enhance the performances for the very small category of athletes with the following requirements :

1) Born, living and training in altitude

2) Having top talent

3) Using an advanced smart and hard training

4) With full focus in athletic

5) With max level of self confidence in their "natural" possibility

But these are the qualities for being Champions, and this is the reason because I strongly believe ALL the athletes in this category are clean.