about talent, mileage, age ... or: why am I so slow?

Come on, show some manners guys. At least give me something.

I am serious. I know 35 miles a week is nothing to you guys - I mean Bekele does that mileage in one training nowadays. But still, 35miles in 3 or 4 sessions should be enough to go under 20:00 right?

Have you seen, in your running team, club or in your suburb, your family people that just couldnt run? People that look like runners, that you see running in the street and you think to yourself: that person is doing a nice easy jog with good form. But in reality they can't go much faster, this is almost all they got.

You either aren't training properly or you are racing the wrong distance>

How fast can you run 100m, 200m, 400m? This is the kind of info we need to assess your situation.

To be honest, I have never run all out time trials over 100, 200 or 400. But maybe that's part of the problem. If I look at other people that started running at a later age, development of speed and technique is more of an afterthought as opposed to something that you take care of first, before building endurance.

About racing the wrong distance... I don't know, maybe. The thing is that I like 5 and especially 10k's.

But I will go out tomorrow or wednesday, do a full out 200 and 400 and let you know the results.

Thanks.

Many people see large performance gains as they move through puberty or have major weight loss. Beyond that the difference between 5k-10k performance when you are minimally trained (30 minutes/day a for a few months) and optimally trained (a pro dedicating 100% of their time to running for many years) is probably only 20% (at most!). All the rest of the difference in performance you see between runners is genetic/epigenetic/developmentally set. Aka: talent. Most of the variation you see in the crowd at the local 5k is not a result of differences in training. Sounds like you have slightly above-average talent. Most adult males can't break 20 minutes regardless of training. Comparing yourself to the imaginary "average" letsrun poster (who has ridiculous genetic gifts but has convinced himself it all came from hard work because he saw big performance gains between ages 13 and 20) is going to be disappointing.

You're still faster than most people. You still have potential to improve over the next 20 years or so. You can race against the people at your level and against your personal bests. You will never be an Olympian (at least in running). But then neither will that 18 minute 5k guy.

ricardo wrote:

But still, 35miles in 3 or 4 sessions should be enough to go under 20:00 right?

.

If you are running 8 or 10 miles a session but only running three or four times a week you could probably do a lot to improve your training.

Keep you weekly mileage the same, run less distance per run but run more frequently. Do that for a week or two and then add a brief interval session, maybe 6 times 5 minutes hard with two minutes recovery jog, once a week. Run hard but not super hard in the intervals.

Thanks for your post.

You're right about the comparing. On the one hand it's encouraging, because you read about all the fast people here and think to yourself that if there are so many fast letsrunners there is a chance that you can be fast too, if only you started training for real. On the other hand, I know I will never run a 15 minute 5k, and that is disappointing ;)

If I can keep on improving the next 20 years, that would be great, Olympics or not.

kevin402can wrote:

ricardo wrote:

But still, 35miles in 3 or 4 sessions should be enough to go under 20:00 right?

.

If you are running 8 or 10 miles a session but only running three or four times a week you could probably do a lot to improve your training.

Keep you weekly mileage the same, run less distance per run but run more frequently. Do that for a week or two and then add a brief interval session, maybe 6 times 5 minutes hard with two minutes recovery jog, once a week. Run hard but not super hard in the intervals.

Thanks for your post.

Yes, but I have to say that lately I have been running more frequently, most weeks 4, some weeks 5.

For example, last week I did 5 sessions like this:

Monday: 9,5 miles @ 8:00

Wednesday: 11 miles @ 9:26

Thursday: 6,5 miles @ 8:25

Saturday: 8,5 miles @ 9:12

Sunday: 7 miles @ 8:45, did some 400's with a friend in this session so the average pace is not really relevant here.

I do intervals sometimes but not really structured. a couple 400's at around 6:20, 1000's at 7:00

Is there something to say about that week of training? Or does it just look aimless and random, which it sort of is.

In the next couple of weeks I will try to run more frequently.

You've probably maxed out the gains from the kind of running you've been doing for the last three years: easy running of 30-40 miles per week. You've built a solid base, but you need something new that probably involves running faster some of the time.

My advice is to pick up a good book on running. Read Daniels, or Magness, or someone else, and try changing up your training for a while. Give your running workouts some structure and see what happens.

ricardo wrote:

To be honest, I have never run all out time trials over 100, 200 or 400. But maybe that's part of the problem. If I look at other people that started running at a later age, development of speed and technique is more of an afterthought as opposed to something that you take care of first, before building endurance.

About racing the wrong distance... I don't know, maybe. The thing is that I like 5 and especially 10k's.

But I will go out tomorrow or wednesday, do a full out 200 and 400 and let you know the results.

Thanks.

Fast runners develop speed first, then endurance. They do this when they are very young. You probably did it too, but maybe neglected your natural speed somewhat since then?

When you do your speed work, don't try to go flat straight away. Give yourself a shorter bursts to get a feel for the effort required.

Do you do any workouts? Or do you just go out and run 30-35 mpw?

You could be plateauing by not challenging yourself a little. And yes you are a little on the older side if you are just starting.

Hey Ricardo,

Run your numbers thru the calculator at the bottom of this page. You have too much variation between your runs, too many days off. I am not sure about how much intense running you do. To use the calculator put your daily mileage in the top row. In the bottom row put in the amount of hard mileage you do. Use the same units in the top and bottom row. If you use miles in top row use miles in the bottom row.

There is nothing wrong with aimless and random as long as it follows certain ratios of day to day variation and easy to hard running.

Fast runners develop speed first, endurance later.

Work on speed.

Pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

Fast runners develop speed first, endurance later.

Work on speed.

Oh really, what are your PBs?

In a nutshell, you want to run a sub-20 5k?

So you need to be able to run 3.1 miles at around 6:25 pace.

In order to do that, you should be able to run:

Workout #1: 4 miles in around 6:45 pace

Workout #2: 5 X 1000m, 1 min rest, in around 4:00 average

In order to do those workouts, you should first be able to run:

Workout #1: 5 miles at 7:00 pace

Workout #2: 7 X 600m, 1 min rest, in around 2:20 average

In order to do those workouts, you should first be able to run:

Workout #1: 8 miles at 7:30 pace

Workout #2: 8 X 400m, 1 min rest in around 1:30-1:35

These aren't exact workouts, but hopefully you get the gist that you need to build a base from both directions: speed and strength. Your training supports your ability to train, which supports your ability to race. Training without a plan is aimless, racing without training (or training too hard before you have built a pace) will just lead to unsatisfactory results.

fasdjfodjf wrote:

Fast runners develop speed first, then endurance. They do this when they are very young. You probably did it too, but maybe neglected your natural speed somewhat since then?

When you do your speed work, don't try to go flat straight away. Give yourself a shorter bursts to get a feel for the effort required.

I did try a couple 200's today. The fastest I did was a 30.8.

It was freezing cold here, I couldn't get my body comforatbly warm and loose so in better conditions and with some specific training I could probably go a little faster.

The 400 I didn't even try as I was totally trashed already after the 200's and the running I did in between. When the weather gets a little better I will report back here with a 400 time and probably a faster 200.

I played tennis in my [pre]teenage years and of course played some street soccer, table tennis, badminton with friends. Not really sports you develop your speed with.

Your speed is more than fine. You should start trying to do workouts if you haven't already. Tempo runs/ fartleks and then on the track. Something like 5x1000 or 6x800 or 8x600 at 5k pace. 90 sec rest.

Those who run 17:xx 5Ks on seemingly no effort are either rare anomalies, exaggerating, or trolls. Your progression is much more normal even for someone with future potential to be 'good.'

Also yes, you should run more, at a very comfortable pace. Your speed is totally fine.

ricardo wrote:

Yes, but I have to say that lately I have been running more frequently, most weeks 4, some weeks 5.

For example, last week I did 5 sessions like this:

Monday: 9,5 miles @ 8:00

Wednesday: 11 miles @ 9:26

Thursday: 6,5 miles @ 8:25

Saturday: 8,5 miles @ 9:12

Sunday: 7 miles @ 8:45, did some 400's with a friend in this session so the average pace is not really relevant here.

I do intervals sometimes but not really structured. a couple 400's at around 6:20, 1000's at 7:00

Is there something to say about that week of training? Or does it just look aimless and random, which it sort of is.

In the next couple of weeks I will try to run more frequently.

If you want to train to race a 5k at something around 6 minute pace, running your daily run 2.5 minutes slower per mile is never going to get you there.

I have a friend who I run with once a week on my easy days and he's right in your wheelhouse. He continues to try to run more but never increases his intensity and gets frustrated he doesn't run any faster. Instead of doing all these "speed" workouts, try doing some tempo runs and progression runs and increase your threshold pace. You'll see massive improvements increasing your daily pace... I mean, one day you run 8:00 and another you run 9:30's.. I've never known anyone who runs an 18:00 5k that goes out and runs 9:25 pace on the weekend.

just some thoughts.

Giddy wrote:

If you want to train to race a 5k at something around 6 minute pace, running your daily run 2.5 minutes slower per mile is never going to get you there.

I have a friend who I run with once a week on my easy days and he's right in your wheelhouse. He continues to try to run more but never increases his intensity and gets frustrated he doesn't run any faster. Instead of doing all these "speed" workouts, try doing some tempo runs and progression runs and increase your threshold pace. You'll see massive improvements increasing your daily pace... I mean, one day you run 8:00 and another you run 9:30's.. I've never known anyone who runs an 18:00 5k that goes out and runs 9:25 pace on the weekend.

just some thoughts.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Yes it looks really weird, I agree and Im not going to defend it. But what about HardLoper's advice to run more at a comfortable pace? Wouldn't my shorter runs be an example of that?

The 11 miler is sort of my "long run".

And what about the 9,5 miler at 8:00. would you say that's a pointless thing to do? Too slow for a tempo, too unspecific for a 10k?