Salazar, Farah, talk about use of L-carnitine, a legal supplement with 11% performance gains

So, it appears there are only one, maybe two or three, posters using multiple nics taking the hardline defense of Salazar and his doings. When one stops they all stop in lock step. Very interesting.

Stepping back for a second, here's what I take away from all this:

1. I don't think one can infer that Alberto is doping his athletes. It does imply that he has a "kitchen sink" approach to supplementation and training aides. Anything that shows some kind of benefit (even in small studies), he'll try it. This is not a strategy that will lead to long-term success.

2. It seems Magness is not banned from or reluctant to comment on what he observed while at the NOP. Therefore, it would seem there wasn't anything "worse" that went on.

Fart nugget cheese fries wrote:

That stuff doesn't do dick. You can buy it at any run of the mill GNC and its ranted and raved about all over the body building forums. It's just an amino acid, like beta alanine which has similar claims, and also doesn't do anything for ya. The only way to see improvement at that level is to train harder/smarter and if that stops working, use real PEDs (which is the real concern for NOP and I hope it hasn't come to that for the sake of the sport). All this article does is stir up drama about a useless product so you'll go out there and buy it.

Mostly true, but you can include 'PEDs' in that scenario too. Same bullshit, different chemicals.

1. What is very strange is Salazar spending over $5,000 for a supplement that many people here claim is worthless. Did Salazar really throw that much money away? If so, then his superiors should have chastised him. The "kitchen sink" approach shouldn't be acceptable for someone in his position.

2. It would seem that every NOP athlete must now sign a very tight, non-disclosure (ND), agreement that attorneys have scrubbed to prevent anyone from spilling any secret information. Regardless of how tight an ND is written it would not prevent WADA and the USADA from forcing an athlete to talk.

I've only just heard about this and it made me think back about 8 years. I had a 13 year old cat who had a host of physical issues that led to paralysis of his hind legs. My vet tried all sorts of things and finally decided on L-carnitine. Within a couple of days he was walking again. This is the first time I've seen mention of it since. Maybe I should get some..

Supplements are legal, and it's ok that Salazar does not publish his athlete's precise diet plans - of course, he tries to get an advantage in any way that's legal and legitimate, and part of the advantage is keeping it secret from the competition. It's almost impossible and certainly impractical to try to draw a line between foods and supplements of substances that naturally occur in foods in significant quantities.

However, in my view, a line is being crossed with injections - nobody can claim that these are "natural". WADA should impose a ban, to the effect that any injections require an explicit permission (i.e. a TUE), and these should be published. While Salazar's behaviour was legal, attempting to use injections for the purpose of performance enhancement does raise some questions. And, if he has ever denied it (which I don't know), of course that would raise questions about his credibility.

the real takeaway wrote:

Stepping back for a second, here's what I take away from all this:

1. I don't think one can infer that Alberto is doping his athletes. It does imply that he has a "kitchen sink" approach to supplementation and training aides. Anything that shows some kind of benefit (even in small studies), he'll try it. This is not a strategy that will lead to long-term success.

2. It seems Magness is not banned from or reluctant to comment on what he observed while at the NOP. Therefore, it would seem there wasn't anything "worse" that went on.

So, as long as it is not explicitly against the rules, then the doping is okay? Good to know.

When Salazar wants to do what amounts to uncontrolled human experimentation on you, is it okay? Do you think Salazar is going to keep you on if you said/say no to his human experimentation schemes?

Let's imagine your kid wins the athletic genes lottery and Salazar wants to stick needles with who-knows-what into her is it still okay? Remember, it's not doping.

USATF have anything to say on this topic? They were notified about the story.

I don't care what Salazar does or doesn't.

As a biochemist and an exercise physiologist, I have just discussed the existing scientific evidence for carnitine's alleged performance enhancing effect, which, objectively and extensively reviewed, shows that its possible benefits are very weak or nonexistent.

Salazar probably also spends a money on creatine, beta-alanine, caffein, beet juice, and sodium citrate. Or if he doesn't, he should, since these supplements have much stronger scientific evidence supporting their positive effects.

lol this thread is funny and idiotic to the nth degree

5000$ on a supplment that maybe costs 30-40 a month between how many athletes in that group all together is simply about 1 years supply!!!!! so per person = normal!!!!!!!!

The fact that this started out by an idiot1 who could and should have simply googled the supplement before making stupid accusations just confirms the generic 'wanna be' letsrun poster who has no athletic ability and likely blames everyone else for their failures in the sport (i coulda been someone - syndrome)

Learn your damn sport inside and out! its not just about running at elite level, biomechanics and nutrition make that 1% difference and worth looking at!

Stop simply thinking must run more and look! marginal Gains in all parts of your training is what makes an athlete better!

Im not a supporter of that group per se but when wild accusations and frankly mindless slander at a basic nutrional element, then Im happy to stand and comment.

Try expanding your knowledge before you just blah blah blah blah

No effect wrote:

I don't care what Salazar does or doesn't.

Ok, so it's fine if he wants you "on the team" and wants to stick needles into you?

Is it fine if your kid is coached by Salazar and he's sticking needles into your kid?

You are condoning uncontrolled human experimentation with your indifference. No wonder the sport has a doping problem.

Regardless of the effects of the drug, the way Salazar operates NOP seems in-genuine to me.

"Former athletes at the Nike Oregon Project have described unease in the camp when L-carnitine was tested using injections."

"In another email, written by Salazar in January 2012, he apparently advised several of his athletes on how to respond to questions about L-carnitine from anti-doping officials to ensure they knew it complied with the rules."

"When asked about an [intravenous] infusion, you are to say no," he wrote.

I am I the only one who finds this kind of practice questionable.

"The order was made in the name of Alberto Salazar, a respected athletics coach and the head of the Nike Oregon Project."

Even if the product ended up not working its seems as though Salazar did not hesitate to jump on board this potentially new found method of getting a step above the competition. Is everyone else okay with this? Who knows if he is hoarding some type of other research out there that is legal by WADA that gives his athletes an advantage simple for using a supplement. We do not know if he is, but we do know he is ready to explore these uncharted areas based on this article. We also know he is ready to cover up.

"Weeks later, The Sunday Times understands, Steve Magness, a scientific advisor and assistant coach at the Nike Oregon Project as well as an athlete at the time, was given three injections of L-carnitine over two hours to see whether a performance uplift could be secured within hours rather than months."

This type of research seems like he is looking for a way to essentially cheat? Yes, it may be legal, but still not fair in my opinion. This article to me depicts the way NOP operates more so then NOP is just straight up cheating.

Salazar's defenders don't want to read facts. The facts are false:

The email from Salazar is obviously fake.

Steve Magness must be discredited. His statement carry no value.

Salazar can do anything he wants to because he has already studied every possible legal angle. WADA and the USADA cannot touch him.

This thread is so strange.

Just because someone can objectively see that carnitine is just another legal GNC supplement doesn't make them some kind of rabid Salazar supporter.

The problem with people like you is make a statement that is an opinion, and not an "absolute" answer. Yet, you claim it is just another supplement, which not true. Oral pill supplements are not anywhere close to other methods of taking a supplement.

Don't want to look wrote:

The problem with people like you is make a statement that is an opinion, and not an "absolute" answer. Yet, you claim it is just another supplement, which not true. Oral pill supplements are not anywhere close to other methods of taking a supplement.

Well ok, if you really truly believe that you are correct, you had better get out there (no just on this message board) and FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT by any legal means necessary, because I'm pretty sure Salazar will get away with this "illegal doping" if you don't get off your butt, get out there in public, and cause a ungodly ruckus.

Maybe you are not aware, but the public ruckus came to be when news organizations released details about L-carnitine and Salazar.

The FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT needs to come from Nike and Salazar. The ball is in their court, not the other way around.

One thing that seemed interesting was that Salazar, Rupp, and Farah are all quoted in the article as saying that the supplement didn't work. They admit to trying it, but say they found no benefit. But in that case, why did Salazar order a second shipment, a few months before the London Olympics (about a year after the first shipment was ordered, IIRC)? Did it take them over a year to decide it wasn't helping? It seems that the use of the L-carnitine coincided roughly with Farah's joing NOP, which also was the start of his massive improvement from also-ran to always-wins. So Salazar and co. took this supplement, started winning everything in sight, and concluded it clearly wasn't helping. Farah said it made him gain weight. When?!

I'm also curious about the mention of a "prominent British cyclist" who had supposedly reaped great benefits from the supplement. The obvious choice would have to be Bradley Wiggins, who won everything in sight in 2012 (TdF, Olympics gold, among other things, after being a relatively minor player in road cycling prior to that).

I'm skeptical of the benefits of any legal supplement, but I can't help wondering if there is something going on here. If Wiggins is in fact the cylist referenced, then the timing would indicate that after starting this supplement, 3 prominent athletes (Wiggins, Farah, Rupp) all somehow found an edge that led them to transition from run-of-the-mill elite athletes to champions at about the same time.

Don't want to wrote:

The FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT needs to come from Nike and Salazar. The ball is in their court, not the other way around.

And then Nike WILL get away with it. And then what? Will you just sit there and pout on the message board? Come on man! Get out there RIGHT NOW and fight for what you believe in!!! Fight the good fight. Kick some tail!!!!!!

Note that WADA rules prohibit use of a combination of substances --which all might be legal individually-- if WADA decides that "could" enhance performance. There are also WADA restrictions about how a legal substance can be taken, and how often. So, caffeine is legal as long as you don't drink something ridiculous like 10 double-shot espresso every day.