Reactions to Justice Dep't study of Ferguson

You just look at statistics like this and think there is a problem. Maybe blacks are more likely to be searched because they don't comply during the traffic stops? We have all seen how angry they get over the being the subject of anything to do with the police. When stopped, police don't automatically make you get out of the car. You either have to be belligerent or they have to have a suspicion of contraband or intoxication.

That's just stupid.

obvious thought wrote:

You just look at statistics like this and think there is a problem. Maybe blacks are more likely to be searched because they don't comply during the traffic stops? We have all seen how angry they get over the being the subject of anything to do with the police. When stopped, police don't automatically make you get out of the car. You either have to be belligerent or they have to have a suspicion of contraband or intoxication.

Are you trolling? I seriously can't tell if you are really this stupid.

Coming from the Obama Justice Department who has flouted the law numerous times this is laughable.

Ferguson, Mo., is a third white, but the crime statistics compiled in the city over the past two years seemed to suggest that only black people were breaking the law. They accounted for 85 percent of traffic stops, 90 percent of tickets and 93 percent of arrests. In cases like jaywalking, which often hinge on police discretion, blacks accounted for 95 percent of all arrests.

Holder would only have to look at the FBI crime statistics to show that a great majority of crimes are committed by 12% of the population. Is it really a surprise that in a city that is 67% black that 95% of arrests would be black?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHwzfpS0d2c

Reconomist wrote:

Holder would only have to look at the FBI crime statistics to show that a great majority of crimes are committed by 12% of the population. Is it really a surprise that in a city that is 67% black that 95% of arrests would be black?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHwzfpS0d2c

The central tenet of the Ferguson report is that those statistics are deeply flawed if minorities are targeted by the police more often than majority citizens. The report suggests that this problem extends into the courts as well.

I don't find anything laughable in the report.

Mundus Vult wrote:

Reconomist wrote:

Holder would only have to look at the FBI crime statistics to show that a great majority of crimes are committed by 12% of the population. Is it really a surprise that in a city that is 67% black that 95% of arrests would be black?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHwzfpS0d2c

The central tenet of the Ferguson report is that those statistics are deeply flawed if minorities are targeted by the police more often than majority citizens. The report suggests that this problem extends into the courts as well.

I don't find anything laughable in the report.

That effing funny. Blacks aren't minorities in Ferguson, the outnumber whites 2:1....... given their empirically predisposition to all classes of crime (especially violent crime) there would be a good reason why blacks would be "targeted". If they were targeting whites the justice Department would be justified in claiming impropriety. You arrest people who are committing crimes, not those who are not.

Are YOU trolling? Because you didn't provide any evidence as to why my comment would make me "stupid".

Mundus Vult wrote:

obvious thought wrote:

You just look at statistics like this and think there is a problem. Maybe blacks are more likely to be searched because they don't comply during the traffic stops? We have all seen how angry they get over the being the subject of anything to do with the police. When stopped, police don't automatically make you get out of the car. You either have to be belligerent or they have to have a suspicion of contraband or intoxication.

Are you trolling? I seriously can't tell if you are really this stupid.

obvious thought wrote:

Are YOU trolling? Because you didn't provide any evidence as to why my comment would make me "stupid".

Because you obviously didn't read the report or even the one quote which I posted.

In fact, your original response is filled with the exact presumptions that the Justice Department found to be at the root of the problem in Ferguson. I seriously thought you were trying to be cute.

If you read the report, African Americans are twice as likely to have their car searched regardless of whether they have contraband.

Reconomist wrote:

That effing funny. Blacks aren't minorities in Ferguson, the outnumber whites 2:1....... given their empirically predisposition to all classes of crime (especially violent crime) there would be a good reason why blacks would be "targeted". If they were targeting whites the justice Department would be justified in claiming impropriety. You arrest people who are committing crimes, not those who are not.

Not according to what the Justice Department found in Ferguson.

I am also not sure that living in a town with a majority of black citizens but an almost entirely white (and apparently latent racist) justice department is a recipe for fairness.

Look, I said initially that I don't think there are simple answers to this. I am not Al Sharpton.

Maybe I am--once again--a damn idiot for thinking folks on LR could provide some reasonable thoughts on a subject involving race.

Mundus Vult wrote:

If you read the report, African Americans are twice as likely to have their car searched regardless of whether they have contraband.

This is often found among reviews of traffic stops-- Blacks are stopped and searched at a rate out of proportion to their population, while on a per search basis, blacks have lower rates of finding contraband.

This, by itself, is not evidence that individual police officers are racist, but it is pretty strong evidence that the outcome of policing systems is to be racist.

On a separate note, the Justice Department report has pretty strong evidence of the existence of racists in the police and court system in Ferguson.

How is a town that is 2/3rds black not have better representation in their local government? Is it that they don't take the time to vote...? Is it that they are themselves a bit racist and people don't want to acknowledge it?

Also, what are the incarceration rates of Asian folks? How often do they confront the justice system? By the statistics, are we discriminating against white folks relative to how we "treat" people of Asian decent?

Mundus Vult wrote:

Reconomist wrote:

That effing funny. Blacks aren't minorities in Ferguson, the outnumber whites 2:1....... given their empirically predisposition to all classes of crime (especially violent crime) there would be a good reason why blacks would be "targeted". If they were targeting whites the justice Department would be justified in claiming impropriety. You arrest people who are committing crimes, not those who are not.

Not according to what the Justice Department found in Ferguson.

I am also not sure that living in a town with a majority of black citizens but an almost entirely white (and apparently latent racist) justice department is a recipe for fairness.

Look, I said initially that I don't think there are simple answers to this. I am not Al Sharpton.

Maybe I am--once again--a damn idiot for thinking folks on LR could provide some reasonable thoughts on a subject involving race.

Is the justice system in Ferguson likely racist? Yes, you are correct they probably are(though it likely wasn't an accident that they developed this dislike of blacks but thats another debate).

However, look at the stats for this country. Black males are more likely to be criminals. Thus, like any business, the police are going to focus on their target market. Doing anything else is just plain bad business and could be argued an unethical use of taxpayer money. If I sell tractors, I will focus on farmers. If I sell plungers, I'll target plumbers. If I am looking for criminals, Ill follow the stats.

corona rona wrote:

How is a town that is 2/3rds black not have better representation in their local government? Is it that they don't take the time to vote...? Is it that they are themselves a bit racist and people don't want to acknowledge it?

Because they feel disenfranchised? Because the voting districts are drawn in such a way to maintain the status quo?

Also, what are the incarceration rates of Asian folks? How often do they confront the justice system? By the statistics, are we discriminating against white folks relative to how we "treat" people of Asian decent?

Such a red herring here. But honestly, you can't look at American history and think that the story of Asian Americans is nearly the same as African Americans, can you? You do understand how bias works, right?

I am not pointing a finger at anyone. I am trying to say that this is really troubling. We will never find "one source" of this issue.

Mundus Vult wrote:

But honestly, you can't look at American history and think that the story of Asian Americans is nearly the same as African Americans, can you? You do understand how bias works, right?

Three generations ago a major Asian nation ambushed and brutally murdered thousands of Americans. Following this event, this nation entered the second world war extended the conflict for years, costing thousands more American lives, and caused continued havoc across the western world. During this time, Americans from this group were illegally arrested and sent to federal camps for years.

What are the arrest figures for Japanese Americans - or any ethnic group that can play the victim card because they also look Asian? Where are the buildings that get burned down because of racial biases against Asians? Where are the leading Asian figure heads driving around the country loud mouthing every infraction against their people? Where are the asians complaining about lack of political representation?

Reaction 1: Most black and brown people in this country will not be surprised by any of this. If you are surprised by what you read, then I guess I'd recommend you try and broach the subject in conversations with people who can speak to these matters from personal experience. While those conversations may not be comfortable, they will most likely be informative, even if the flow of information is largely unidirectional. Ultimately, I think that's a good thing. The end result need not be that you become best friends and have dinner together regularly, but being able to place oneself in the shoes of the people with whom you share an school/office/neighborhood/country is an important skill to have, in my opinion.

Reaction 2:

This is not a Ferguson problem. This is happening all over the country. I am a middle-aged black man who has never been drunk in my life (I'm a tee-totaler), and who did not get a license until late in life because I lived in a big city, and I still have lots of stories about run-ins with cops, store owners, campus security, etc. Sad thing is my stories pale in comparison to those of my friends who began driving earlier and who led a less-hermetic lifestyle than I did. I've also had law enforcement treat me quite nicely on occasion, but there are explanations for that which I won't get into here, but which do not apply to the vast majority of black and brown people in this country. I'm not asking for any sympathy because I don't feel sorry for myself, but the fact of the matter is that you're fooling yourself if you think the

play by the rules and all will be well' philosophy applies equally to all members of the society. This is not a suggestion that people should not play by the rules; it is an acknowledgement that the rules are not the same for everybody, however much some people might want the to be or think they are.

corona rona wrote:

Three generations ago a major Asian nation ambushed and brutally murdered thousands of Americans. Following this event, this nation entered the second world war extended the conflict for years, costing thousands more American lives, and caused continued havoc across the western world. During this time, Americans from this group were illegally arrested and sent to federal camps for years.

What are the arrest figures for Japanese Americans - or any ethnic group that can play the victim card because they also look Asian? Where are the buildings that get burned down because of racial biases against Asians? Where are the leading Asian figure heads driving around the country loud mouthing every infraction against their people? Where are the asians complaining about lack of political representation?

So, the internment of ~120,000 Japanese in the 40's (all of who were later compensated and formally apologized to) is the same as the couple hundred year history of Africans in the Americas--the 2 million who died in the middle passage, the emancipation, reconstruction and the KKK, the era of Jim Crow and all the way to where we are now? Do you know anything of the history of reconstruction? Internment was a sad case in American history but you can't compare the two especially when you goal is to argue that "Asian are minorities and they don't have problems with the police." The point--reiterated once again by the Ferguson report--is that the police there don't like blacks regardles of whether they are law abiding citizens or not.

Why am I even arguing with you? You are clearly a troll or an idiot.

It's really awful law abiding people get swept in when minding their own business.

I see studies on the topic and hear the complaints on the news. Whenever I see the stories I ask what could solve the problem and can't come up with an answer.

If you are a cop in an area that is predominately black, doesn't it make sense to realize the majority of people pulled over will be black? And if there are crimes being committed in that area, would they be done by the same race as areas population? Also, and unfortunately, while policing in that area wouldn't it make sense that occasionally someone minding their business would get stopped?

Not saying it is right. But that's the way it is. The other option is not doing any pro-active policing, then what happens?

When you see how often blacks are stopped by whites and given arrest warrants for misdemeanors like parking tickets, then you start to see just how racially biased their policing is. The emails show direct racial bias but the system demonstrates that the police treat black people very different from white people. And this is certainly not confined to Ferguson, although Ferguson is one of those places like Starke, Florida that use traffic stops to gain all their revenues. The rest of the country is racially biased in police stops as well. New Jersey, for instance.

Cisneros,

Thanks for your response. I was not at all surprised by the results but that doesn't mean they aren't difficult to read. I have been through a lot of hurricanes so while the damage isn't surprising, it is still troubling. For what it is worth, I have a very wide array of close friends so I am familiar with both the personal stories as well as the various strategies folks endorse to "fix" the issues.

I think I said at one point that I didn't think this was simply a Ferguson problem. I suppose I just keep musing about how we start to move towards some reconciliation.

Again, thanks.

Mundus