Running economy

Yeah, I have read few sources that claim running economy is the most useful method of determining success. I hope this questionnaire helps identify the answers you seek.

I submitted my responses. When do you think I might see the results...and where?

For future reference, you can just post in one of your previous threads and it will be bumped to the top of the list.

In any case, I completed this the other day and I was wondering when the results will come out.

Thank you for filling it out. Let's Run deleted my thread so here I am again.

The official results will not be out for 3-4 months. However, I should be able to post some general findings in about a month.

DocRun wrote:

Thank you for filling it out. Let's Run deleted my thread so here I am again.

The official results will not be out for 3-4 months. However, I should be able to post some general findings in about a month.

Gotcha. Thanks for the info.

And for anyone who would think of taking this down...What!?

Ha, if they deem it appropriate to take down, then I cannot argue. I do, however, feel it is harmless and certainly not taking up much more room in cyberspace.

Thanks again.

Cool questionnaire. Simple and clean. Not too difficult. Hope you find some good information from the responses.

All:

I know there have been a few discussions concerning "Running Economy" on here of late. I have a questionnaire that I plan on using to help clarify what others think and know concerning running economy. It is two pages, but only 15 short questions (with videos!). For the record, there are various definitions of what running economy means, how it should be measured, and its usefulness and most are correct in their own way. Hence, please do not kill the messenger; this questionnaire is only designed to help us all (or for those who need the help).

If you are a coach or an experienced distance runner, your help in submitting this questionnaire would be greatly appreciated. It is completely anonymous and you can email with any questions before, during, or after you fill it out.

Please use the link below to access the survey.

https://mtsupsychology.az1.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_9NNO3zA6xZecMOp

Thank you.[/quote]

Hey, thanks for doing this. Hopefully you can do something useful with the data. I particularly enjoyed the challenge of the videos. Tougher than I thought it would be.

Best of luck.

Finished. Hope you find what you are looking for.

Best of luck.

Just finished the questionnaire. Hope this helps you out. I will pass along the link to others if that is okay?

Best.

Thank you for your help. Yes, please feel free to pass along the link.

Finished.

Best

Done. Hope you get enough results.

DD

Done and done.

Good luck with the rest.

Donzo.

Running economy is one of the dumbest concepts in training theory, right up there with the 180 strides/minute stuff and Evolution running.

I'll list just a few points worth considering before hanging your hat on this measure:

If I begin w a 4L VO2peak and go to a 5L VO2peak after months of training, does it really much matter if I use an additional 20ml of O2 to run 6min mile pace? Relative cost is much more sensible than absolute cost.

The steady state concept itself is rather dubious. VO2 drifts or climbs slightly even in low intensity running and walking. A few minutes of data is rather silly when the intensity is actually sustainable for 90' or more.

If the intensity is light and effort is several hours, then fueling is more important than economy. If the duration is relatively short, fuel availability is not an issue at all because exercise is not limited by fuel.

Some running economy studies forget that muscle fiber type alters the kinetics of VO2. If I use less O2 in early exercise, then the measure of the rise in O2 cost will appear greater despite the fact I was more 'economical' to begin with.

Allometrics research suggests scaling VO2/kg is actually pretty silly anyway.

The best way to improve running economy is to replace all your high oxidative motor units with motor units lacking mitochondria. People who lack mitochondria pretty much suck at distance running.

please see for starters:

The Valid Measurement of Running Economy in Runners. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2014 Feb 19.

Dissociation between running economy and running performance in elite Kenyan distance runners. J Sports Sci. 2014 Jun 11:1-9.

I completed your questionnaire. Interesting idea; curious to see how it all turns out.

Hey there. Great post. Trust me, I have read nearly every article on running economy since the 1950's. I will attempt to address each of your points without going into too much detail.

#1 Multiple authors have addressed running economy to be one of the most useful determinants of distance running performance. Emphasis on "one of" including Jack Daniels. I am not advocating anything related to Jack D.; I mention it because so many runners/coaches utilize his training concepts. Right or wrong, you cannot argue with the sheer number of runners utilizing his information

#2 VO2 peak and a submaximal/steady state run are far different measures. For one, at steady state and at the same speed no two runners will vary by 20 ml/kg/min; even when comparing two runners of vastly different fitness. How do I know this? Because I have spent well over 100 hours in the lab testing that very question. Data will be provided when this research is formally presented.

#3 each runner was actually allowed to accommodate to the speed and then reach a steady state. Yes, VO2 does drift a bit - up and down - during the course of a run. Hence, we took an average measure over the course of the latter portion of the run and not the single highest or lowest measure. This is a basic concept learned in most chemistry/math classes.

#4 I do not believe my particular post mentioned anything about fuel and how it affects running economy (that is a whole other conversation). Therefore, I am not certain how this applies here.

#5 Yes, muscle fiber type can affect running economy. However, again, we took an average measure over the course of a run rather than simply a very early measure or a very late measure. Regardless, if a sprinter decides he/she wants to run 5 miles, there economy is what it is; in spite of the fact they may be highly fast twitch.

#6 Allometric scaling is not "silly" and actually fairly complicated. Some believe it is better to utilize, some do not; that is science and there is always more than one valid opinion as long as everyone is doing their homework and conducting valid/moral research.

From the standpoint of this study, we did not use allometric scaling for our running economy measures, though it was discussed....hence, and again...how does this apply to my post?

#7 Not arguing for or against your comment concerning Mitochondria. However, it is one of many components of distance running performance.

Finally, Your comment about relative costs versus absolute costs (point #2) and allometric scaling (point #6) contradict each other. Relative costs are related to bodyweight; absolute costs are not. Further, allometric scaling is not simply dividing bodyweight by VO2. Thus, regardless of one's opinion concerning allometric scaling of VO2, your discussion of it is incorrect.

I hope this covers it all. Again, I am not arguing with you, just getting some information out there.

I really do appreciate your post.

I have read literally 90% of the research regarding running economy that is available; including the two articles posted. Two articles out of the 100+ that are available do not replace the importance of the other 98.

Finally, the current post says nothing about whether or not the poster (me) believes running economy is inherently useful.. I am simply attempting to add to the literature out there in hopes of helping us all out.

The best way to do that is to complete the questionnaire and leave useful comments and/or ask a question that can be addressed by myself or someone else.

Seriously though, thank you for your post. Very helpful.

Wow, pretty sure that "dsrunner" guy feels pretty dumb now. Anyhow, cool questionnaire. I completed it.

Good Luck.

Thank you for completing the questionnaire. I do not wish to make anyone feel poorly. I just want to address questions based on either academic or anecdotal evidence; not hearsay.

As stated previously, the questionnaire does not intend to promote or disqualify running economy. In addition, there are many measures that relate to running economy besides oxygen consumption and the questionnaire only promotes VO2 because it is how it was measured in our lab; not because we believe it is the be-all, to end-all measure of performance/economy/efficiency (whichever term one wishes to use).

Just attempting to gather information about the topic for those interested in making a worthwhile contribution based on their own knowledge.