Washington State Meet

Most likely Arcadia for D1 and Brea for D3. D2 I am not sure. D4 and 5? Idk.

Here is the way I see it.

There are three areas where coaches have to excel in order to be a great coach. Good coaches may be strong in one area or another. Weaker coaches tend to be mediocre or struggle in all four areas.

Recruiting: The ability of the coach to get gets onto the team. Coaches that excel here tend to have medium to large size teams and vary on success from year to year. They may not develop their athletes much, but rely on the maturation of their athletes to help the program succeed. They tend to have pretty good JV programs.

Training: These coaches are up date and incorporate the most up-to-date training in their programs. These coaches tend to have smaller teams, with a stud or two each year. They rarely, if ever, have a good team. However, those on the team tend to develop very well.

Community: These coaches build a solid community within their teams. They may not be the best team out there, but they love being together. These teams can be any size. Their athletes tend to not improve much compared to other teams.

If I looked at the GSL, I would put an example of coaches as such:

Great coach: North Central (though it is two coaches)

Recruiting coach: Central Valley

Training coach: Mt. Spokane

Community coach: Shadle Park

Any of these coaches can have success, but it is usually short lived (1-2 years at a time). The great coaches are regionally (Northwest) competitive perennially.

I hold off until a coach has been in position 4 years before I decide on their coaching. This way any remnants of the old coach are gone.

College Coach wrote:What kind of 2M times would you expect from their top 2 this spring?

Well, Carroll didn't run the 3200 last year, focusing on the mile and half because his teammates are more longer distance type guys. But given that he ran 4:14.00y this spring, and 9:22.37 for 3200m in a trio of attempts two years ago, I'd guess he could be around 9 flat by the end of this spring if he wanted to be.

Beck ran 9:12 last year, and 9:14 the year before as a soph... not a lot of improvement, but I don't think it'd be a stretch to say he could be running 9:00 this spring. He ran a 9:13.06 for a full 2 miles a month ago.

Their #3, Peloquin, ran 9:09.27 last spring, so he could challenge 9:00 as well.

Moussa is more of an XC guy, so I have no idea what he'd get down to in track. I don't think he'd challenge 9:00, but probably 9:10ish.

Hank Moody wrote:

I agree with most of what you said, except I firmly believe that their #5 is not near good enough for anyone to make the "all-time great" claim. If XC was scored 1-4 I might retract my statement, but it's not.

I really don't know if Gig Harbor will win NXN. Does anyone really think they are going to dominate CBA or American Fork? To be an all-timer (in my book) one should be head and shoulders above the nation (unless it happens to be a year of multiple all-times).

I don't think anyone is going to dominate anyone at NXN, and I don't think anyone stated that anyone would.

However, I think Gig Harbor's front quartet matches up well with American Fork's top two - and if Gig Harbor has 4 guys with American Fork's #2, that's a scary thought considering American Fork is a serious trophy contender. I also don't think their #5 is that far, if at all, behind American Fork's #5... look at the state meets (which have run about the same in the past)

1. 12 Connor McMillan 15:04.1 American Fork

3. 11 Zachary Jacklin 15:27.8 American Fork

10. 12 Tyler Bell 15:46.6 American Fork

15. 9 Casey Clinger 15:52.7 American Fork

18. 12 Caleb Thompson 16:04.4 American Fork

21. 12 Spencer Herzog 16:07.7 American Fork

48. 11 Daniel Bentley 16:41.6 American Fork

1. 12 Logan Carroll 15:06.37 Gig Harbor

2. 12 Wolfgang Beck 15:09.28 Gig Harbor

3. 11 Tristan Peloquin 15:14.24 Gig Harbor

9. 12 Mahmoud Moussa 15:29.62 Gig Harbor

29. 11 Michael Hammer 15:59.38 Gig Harbor

39. 12 Jordan Oldenburg 16:09.10 Gig Harbor

73. 9 Jack Shields 16:30.76 Gig Harbor

and a common opponents comparison: At Bob Firman, Gig Harbor's #5 beat every other team's #3 except Bingham and Orem (and there were plenty of good teams at Firman). American Fork's #5 beat Orem's #3 by 2.5 seconds at the state meet, and was a second and a half behid Bingham's #3 - very similar to Gig Harbor's #5.

In more comparisons of Gig Harbor's #5 to other NXN caliber teams...

He ran 16:23.3 at Bob Firman.

On the same course at NXN-NW last year, here are the times of #5 runners for the NXN teams: 16:21.6 (NC), 16:33.4 (Kamiakin), 17:10.2 (Summit).

At Bob Firman 2012, these were the #5 runners for the NXN teams: 16:18.74 (NC), 16:52.06 (Arcadia), 16:37.07 (Davis)

At NXN-NW in 2011, these were the #5 runners for the NXN teams: 16:47.2 (NC), 16:44.1 (Gig Harbor)

At Bob Firman 2011, these were the #5 runners for the NXN teams: 17:01.34 (NC), 16:40.93 (Davis), 17:31.47 (The Woodlands), 16:38.74 (Arcadia), 17:01.21 (Rancho Cucamonga)

... and so on.

Bottom line: Very few teams have had as good #5 runners as Gig Harbor. And very few teams have had as good a front four group as Gig Harbor. Their front four is All-Time worthy, and their #5 is the kind of runner you expect for a trophy contending team.

All-Time front 4 + Top-5 in the US for #5 = All-Time team consideration, and one of the clear favorites for the NXN title this year.

Comical wrote:

"College level stuff"? What level of college are you talking about? NAIA or D1? It's great to be excited about a really good high school team but lets not get carried away. 15:08 on a course that's probably right at 3 miles is definitely good but it's not that good. If we're talking D1, 15:08 on an equivalent difficulty course would bring you through maybe mid-pack for 3 miles of an 8K.

I'd venture to guess anyone on this board that ran or is running for a university would say their high school training, no matter how hard, paled in comparison to how they trained in college.

I think the commment was made to indicate "college-style" training, not actually college workouts. Clearly they're not running NCAA times. However, certain programs do mimic a college training schedule with milage/workouts/periodizatoin and racing schedule strategy. In comparison to your average HS training program (ie 90% of HS programs), these programs would very much look like a collegiate scenario.

Feeling pretty fast in your big-boy, NCAA spikes, eh?

Maybe you're right watch out, I guess we'll see. No one stated that they would, I'm just saying a team worthy of "one of the best ever" should probably roll through everyone.

I probably don't need to tell you, but MEAD went 1-8-16-43-67 at footlocker west that year.

It appears that Gig Harbor is certainly better than I thought they were, but I just hate how quick people are to call a certain team "an all-time team".

So a couple things on Gig harbor and their training and their coach. You can read all of this at the espn article below but I will paraphrase it: Gig has always been one of the better teams in the state and has had 2 quality coaches before Wizzo. When they found themselves without a coach one of their top runners balled-up and asked a pro athlete at the Portland Track Festival if he he would be their coach, surprisingly he said yes. With little to no coaching experience he asked professional coaches for a coaching template to base his training on, as he himself never ran cross country and is a 800m runner, albeit a very good one. The talented group of athletes bought into his training and worked hard and got some transfers and are now one of the best teams of all time. That is basically their story in a nutshell.

http://espn.go.com/blog/high-school/track-and-xc/post/_/id/360/finding-the-right-gig-mark-wieczorek-and-the-gig-harbor-boys-chase-dreams-together

We will soon know if Gig Harbor is the best team in the Nation, and/or the best in Washington history, and/or the best in US history.

But for now, all we know is they have the fastest team in state history in Washington. Also they have one of the fastest team times in US prep history.

But lets face it, it's difficult to impossible to compare teams from different years. Track is easier to compare times than cross.

But IF Gig wins NXN then it's allowable to call them the best of all time since many if not most people who follow cross consider this the best season in US prep cross history.

GSL Fan wrote:

Great coach: North Central (though it is two coaches)

Recruiting coach: Central Valley

Training coach: Mt. Spokane

Community coach: Shadle Park

I found your post enjoyable to read and agree regarding the 3 components of coaching but find it hard to swallow how you seemingly throw the CV, Mt. Spo, and Shadle coaches under the bus. Are you saying they are only good in the areas you labeled them, or are you saying that they are the best in the GSL in that particular area?

Obviously the CV and Shadle coaches can train athletes well too. NC and Mt. Spo don't have a foothold on GSL training. It's fine that you think Mt. Spo and NC are better coaches in training, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it, but if you are saying the other 8 GSL coaches suck at training their athletes I would disagree.

You didn't mention Ferris and Mead, both current coaches have won state multiple championships, Ferris was ranked 1st or 2nd nationally under it's current coach I believe.

Besides the 3 components of coaching, their are 2 other components to having successful teams, which are team talent and intangibles (luck, kismet, injuries, whatever you want to throw in here). Not taking anything away from NC (and you are clearly an NC fan ... you mention NC has 2 coaches, as if other GSL assistant coaches are chopped liver), but NC gets great talent. Other GSL teams do as well, no question. And no question NC knows how to develop both the talented and not-so-talented athletes to improve. However through the years NC does get athletes who live closer to other schools who decide to run for NC. Yes the school district ok's the school choice decisions, but if those athletes ran for their neighborhood school and not NC it WOULD make a difference to NC's overall record (however being fair, NC does have a small enrollment it pull from). Finally after the talent, and the 3 coaching components, luck/injuries come into play for all teams from year to year, obviously 9and again being fair, Wilmot has had his bad luck of injuries). So yes NC has great coaching, but they don't have a monopoly on it in the GSL.

WARunningHistorian wrote:

We will soon know if Gig Harbor is the best team in the Nation, and/or the best in Washington history, and/or the best in US history.

But for now, all we know is they have the fastest team in state history in Washington. Also they have one of the fastest team times in US prep history.

But IF Gig wins NXN then it's allowable to call them the best of all time since many if not most people who follow cross consider this the best season in US prep cross history.

It will be interesting to see if any of their top 3 can break 9 for 2m this coming OT season. Would love to see another repeat of the great '75 Hammond HS trio (Chapa & Co.) that broke 9:00 in the same season. It's probably a once in a lifetime event, but nonetheless, it would be neat to see again.

seattle hser wrote:

So how much difference does it make to have a good coach?

Are any coaches really good or bad or is it just a matter of having talented athletes?

How does someone know if someone is a good coach or not?

Not speaking about Gig Harbor soley, others (including myself) have said enough about Gig and how they were good before their current coach, although he certainly has done a great job with them too).

How do you know if your coach is good? Well perhaps if you have to ask, your coach is not. Either that or you and your teammates and parents are too cynical and too hard on your coach and need to give him a break.

A BIG component of coaching is being a salesperson (in other words, winning their trust and confidence). You can have the best coaching books from the best coaching authors and it can say do 10x400's one week before the state meet is the best workout but if you can't "sell" that workout to your athletes they won't have the confidence that they need to do well.

I would say the most important thing to have from a coach is one who listens to you and who cares about you. If your coach does that, that is good.

Personally my HS coach was considered GREAT and is in the hall of fame and everything but we often doubted that he was doing the best for US, that maybe he was just doing the same workouts year in and year out, and that he wasn't adapting workouts for us. But being older now (and hopefully wiser), I realize we were too hard on him. Accept that you are flawed runners and he is a flawed coach, all you can do is accept his best and do your best to improve as a runner.

T&F Analyst wrote:

It will be interesting to see if any of their top 3 can break 9 for 2m this coming OT season. Would love to see another repeat of the great '75 Hammond HS trio (Chapa & Co.) that broke 9:00 in the same season. It's probably a once in a lifetime event, but nonetheless, it would be neat to see again.

Yes it will! As one person mentioned, it seams that Carroll is more inclined to the 1600m. However I am sure he will race the 3200 on multiple occasions, plus I see Moussa giving it a real shot as well. I do sense that Gig is a team that is motivated by time and historic standards so I do think they know the relevance of having multiple runners break that standard.

WARunningHistorian wrote:

Personally my HS coach was considered GREAT and is in the hall of fame and everything

Pat Tyson eh?

Middle Distance Coach wrote:

Pat Tyson eh?

Lol. Not necessarily the national hall of fame, there are others WA xc coaches in hall of fames.

I am a GSL fan in general. I write this for head coaches only. I know that assistant coaches influence the team dynamics.

I wrote two coaches for NC (Boys), because they have 2 head coaches... Coach Long and Coach Knight. Knight does the training and Long gets get out. So it's a different scenario, but both of them together make for a great coach. Independently, as I just noted, Knight is a training coach and Long is a recruiting coach and builds community.

Pat Tyson (Former Mead Boys coach) is the only coach I have met, so far, that, independently, is very strong in all three areas. I know that others exist, but he is the only one I have met personally.

Every coach harbors a certain ability in each area, not solely one or the other. A good coach is very strong in one area, but doesn't mean that cannot have aspects of the others.

CV (Overall)has a good coach and has put together some great teams. I know what they do, and they could definitely be doing more to improve their training.

Mt. Spokane (Boys) has some good training, but I don't see them having the same community that other programs in the GSL have.

Shadle, I should specify the girls, have the best community in the GSL (Sorry NC). Every time I see the girls running or at a meet, it's as if they are with their best friends. Their training is pretty good, but can be improved.

I only brought up one example for each category, not meaning to say that the other programs are no good. These are the first teams that came to mind as examples while writing this last night.

I know most of the coaches and a lot of the runners. Here in Spokane, we are lucky to have a lot of good coaches and have talented athletes that choose to continue running beyond middle school.

And yes there is a luck factor for sickness and injury, but I was only looking at the type of coaching.

And in regard to students choosing NC, the boundaries in Spokane are very weird. Over the past 6 years, NC (Boys) have only had 1, maybe 2, athletes opt into NC while living in another school's boundaries. There are some that have moved out of NC boundaries, but kept their students there. The one that I know of for sure is not a varsity runner, and may never be.

Lots of speculation about GH that is only partially true. Some clarifications:

1. there have been more than 2 prior coaches. Dude who coached the boys to 5th in 2010 replaced Patty Ley and hung it up right away for family. He was good too. Rich Frazier.

2. Wizzo was already hooked up with Gig and was considering the offer well before he was approached at a meet by one of the guys. Gig's track coach was looking for a replacement and was given Wizzo's contact by a fellow coach, Matt Ellis of Bellarmine. When the kid approached Wizzo later at the Portland meet, it was because the track coach had mentioned Wizzo's interview to him. The ESPN story exaggerated to make the story sound good, but there was a hiring process already taking place, it just remained to be seen whether Wizzo would move to Tacoma.

3. Logan Carroll ran 8-16 last year rather than 32 because he had been hurt in the winter and missed training, not for any other reason. It had nothing to do with his teammates.

4. Wizzo is very different from Wingard and Ley, and he's different from Rich Frazier, who coached in 2010. All are very good coaches. The thing they have in common is passion for running and a community that has talent in the gene pool.

5. Tides will likely keep their heads on straight rather than get caught up in all this. Lotsa flattering comments...on to next week.

Any truth to the 110mpw training?

No.

Gig should count their blessings with Mahmoud Moussa transferring over. This would be a very different story if he were not there.