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The Drake
Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/18/2010 9:34PM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Hi Malmo,

In the thread that you answered questions on how to structure a 100 and 110 mile week, you stated 3 things that may lead to burnout or injury:


"If only I had a dollar for every stubborn athlete that claimed increasing mileage (by default a low impact activity) would cause burnout or injury, yet turn around and do the same damn stupid things I've seen over and over again: 1) disproportionate long runs, 3) too hard and too few tempo runs, 3) trying to "keep up" in interval sessions."

Regarding the second part of the second point: "too few tempo runs" are you implying that if people run easy most or all of the time and don't do enough tempo runs that this may lead to brunout or injury? Or are you reffering to people who may stagnate or not improve because they are not mixing things up a bit?

Back in the 70's when you were in high school and there were alot of people around 9:00mins for 2 miles did most of them ramp up the mileage like you have advocated?

Thank you for taking the time to answer these questions
The Drake
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/18/2010 9:41PM - in reply to The Drake Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
P.S. I know you have said before that most of your advice is based on what has worked on hundreds of distance runners rather than anomalies, but is your mileage adivce based on your observations of top high school runners, top college runners or athletes at the top level (or all three).

Thanks
SMJO
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/18/2010 9:43PM - in reply to The Drake Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Pretty sure he means many tempos at the right tempo pace rather than infrequent borderline time trials.
The Drake
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/19/2010 7:10PM - in reply to SMJO Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Thanks for the reply, it makes sense. Marathon pace or a little slower for tempo runs, and frequent racing he reccommends too I beleive...
Ess Gee Ess
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/19/2010 11:14PM - in reply to The Drake Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Don't want to step on any toes but malmo mentioned "running to the barn" as often as you can handle and I don't think included workouts specified as "tempo" runs. Therefore you could include 5 "tempo" runs a week...or I guess....more if you'd like.
aaaa
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/20/2010 12:47AM - in reply to Ess Gee Ess Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Ess Gee Ess wrote:
Don't want to step on any toes but malmo mentioned "running to the barn" as often as you can handle and I don't think included workouts specified as "tempo" runs. Therefore you could include 5 "tempo" runs a week...or I guess....more if you'd like.


I doubt that Malmo agrees with you. 5 or more tempo runs per week isn´t good. What is more important than the frequency of tempos, it´s how long tempos you run. The high glycogen depletion from a long run stimulates mitochondrial biogenesis more than shorter runs done with higher frequency does. Another advantage is that you don´t have to run almost every day at one particular intensity. Variety of training is very important.
Confusion
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/20/2010 6:13AM - in reply to The Drake Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
What exactly is the question here?

Its a bit vague
aholian
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/20/2010 6:24AM - in reply to aaaa Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Tell it to the Kenyans.
maardn DK
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/20/2010 8:45AM - in reply to aholian Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I completely agree. It's more or less just a question about doing high mileage at the pace you feel like: Setting out easily and finishing at a good speed if feeling strong and not increasing the pace if NOT feeling strong. And as the other poster said - tempo runs should not be run like races with a specific warm up with a lot a strides and drills and all that shit. It's just a matter of easing into marathonpace or something like that on the regular runs if you feel strong enough! That's what the kenyans do. Heart rate monitors and GPS telling about speed and effort are useless - in my opinion even counterproductive to use!
Hayduke
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/20/2010 9:36AM - in reply to The Drake Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
[quote]The Drake wrote:
too hard and too few tempo runs, ??



possible answer..... Instead of doing a very structured 20-40 min run at a specific pace or intensity 1 or 2 times a week, you should just run without structure and increase the pace as the run progresses by feel.
Ess Gee Ess
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/20/2010 11:41AM - in reply to aaaa Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

aaaa wrote:

I doubt that Malmo agrees with you. 5 or more tempo runs per week isn´t good.


malmo would probably agree. malmo probably wouldn't refer to "running to the barn" as "tempo" runs per se anyway. You need to reread what I wrote.
Ess Gee Ess
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/20/2010 11:42AM - in reply to Ess Gee Ess Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
The Drake
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/20/2010 7:42PM - in reply to Ess Gee Ess Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Thanks for posting that link, sums up his view on tempo runs nicely.
Im going to guess
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/20/2010 11:41PM - in reply to aaaa Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

aaaa wrote:


Ess Gee Ess wrote:
Don't want to step on any toes but malmo mentioned "running to the barn" as often as you can handle and I don't think included workouts specified as "tempo" runs. Therefore you could include 5 "tempo" runs a week...or I guess....more if you'd like.


I doubt that Malmo agrees with you. 5 or more tempo runs per week isn´t good. What is more important than the frequency of tempos, it´s how long tempos you run. The high glycogen depletion from a long run stimulates mitochondrial biogenesis more than shorter runs done with higher frequency does. Another advantage is that you don´t have to run almost every day at one particular intensity. Variety of training is very important.


This would all be very impressive if you had a clue as to what you were talking about.
Coach Jimmy
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/21/2010 9:53AM - in reply to Im going to guess Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I think the problem here is that the word "tempo" is confusing people. What Malmo is talking about is a steady state run that is slower than the Daniels 20 minute tempo pace. Daniels tempos for 20 minutes are about 8% slower than 5k race pace. His 25 and 30 min tempos are 9-10% slower than 5k race pace. Malmo is talking about a longer distance of 5-7 miles at a pace that is between 12-14% slower than 5k race pace. The word "tempo" freaks people out and misleads the runners and the coaches. I call this workout a "steady state" run because I want my athletes under control and running the correct pace. Once you call it a "tempo" you are going to see your athletes treat it like a time trial. These are the same athletes that will struggle towards the end of the season when everyone else is running faster times.
Sagarin
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/21/2010 10:10AM - in reply to Coach Jimmy Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I'm not sure "running to the barn" is even a planned tempo day anyway. I gather he is rather suggesting to run by feel, finishing strong depending on what the BODY dictates. Sometimes finishing strong may be for just a few miles, and sometimes it may be for longer. The body is the best coach. Listen to it.
Ess Gee Ess
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/21/2010 10:17AM - in reply to Sagarin Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Sagarin wrote:

I'm not sure "running to the barn" is even a planned tempo day anyway. I gather he is rather suggesting to run by feel, finishing strong depending on what the BODY dictates. Sometimes finishing strong may be for just a few miles, and sometimes it may be for longer. The body is the best coach. Listen to it.


Exactly.
lenny
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/21/2010 10:28AM - in reply to Sagarin Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
When you say, listen to your body, do you mean: Don't push your body to pain or discomfort (make sure it still feels pleasurable when you're running) ?
malmo
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/21/2010 5:59PM - in reply to The Drake Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Interesting that in one of these threads there is a link to John Kellogg’s piece on tempo training, something that I’ve never read before. In it he touches on the concept of ‘training by feel’ something that I’ve never thought there was, or could be, any other way. Reading comments on this message board, that many of you (at least the vocal minority) don’t train by feel. Is there any other way? Can you imagine a gymnast saying they don’t know when they are balanced? Do you know when you’re tired? sleepy?, hungry? thirsty? The only reason to use a watch is to confirm what you are already feeling. Your body tells you everything you need to know. Listen to it.

http://www.letsrun.com/2005/jkfitness.php

With this quote from ‘kudzurunners

"Having run easy on the out leg, with a few gentle accelerations as the turnaround point approached, I'd now do what I called 'opening up the throttle.' I'd gently and persistently float up into what I might now call my 'maximum aerobic pace' but had no words for back then. Sometimes, realizing that I was pushing just a little too hard, I'd back off the throttle just a hair, let my breath settle - and, as often as not, suddenly feel a little 'release,' a deep bubble of relaxation."

Compare kudzurunners description to mine when I wrote about Henry Rono

http://2008olympictrialsakatommyleonard.shutterfly.com/544

“Without a doubt, my memories of Rono got me through many a cold, rainy winter training run. I'd cock my head back, lean forward, push my chest out, pump my arms and let my body follow my imagination down the road. I even think there were a few times that I felt what it must have been like.”

That’s tempo running.


aaaa wrote:
I doubt that Malmo agrees with you. 5 or more tempo runs per week isn´t good. What is more important than the frequency of tempos, it´s how long tempos you run.


I disagree with you. While I have no problem with five or more tempo runs in a week, except in a base building phase, I can’t see any reason limit your training efforts in this manner. The point of saying that “you could do 4-5 tempo runs a week if you wanted to” is to give you an idea what the effort level should be for a tempo run.


Sagarin wrote:
I'm not sure "running to the barn" is even a planned tempo day anyway. I gather he is rather suggesting to run by feel, finishing strong depending on what the BODY dictates. Sometimes finishing strong may be for just a few miles, and sometimes it may be for longer. The body is the best coach. Listen to it.


Sure it’s planned, but it’s not ‘planned’ in the limited definition that you are ascribing. Extemporaneous tempo runs, in my opinion, are always planned, and they only way to do them. Does something have to be written on paper to be planned,? Is it any less planned for you to know that on any given day if the instantaneous feedback your body is giving you says ‘go’ you will respnd? The former is rigid and not a very organic way of training isn’t it?

“Running to the barn” can be anywhere from 1-5 miles (sometimes even longer, 8-9-10 miles) but generally 2-4 miles. Increase the tempo during an easy run until you ‘feel the zone’. Your body will be perfectly synchronized in rhythm – your breathing, your stride cadence, you should feel like you’re walking on air. When you are done with a tempo run you should feel exhilarated, not exhausted.

Feel your Kung Fu, Grasshopper.


The Drake wrote:
Back in the 70's when you were in high school and there were alot of people around 9:00mins for 2 miles did most of them ramp up the mileage like you have advocated?



I wouldn’t now. But lets make it clear, we never heard of ten percent rules, we just went out and ran. The physics of low-impact aerobic training (mileage) was no different then than now. However, the psychology of low impact training has made a dramatic turn. Anyone who abides by the so-called ten percent rule is like a little kid playing with his food. If you want your dessert just eat your food and eat it now.
Archimedes
RE: Question for Malmo regarding "too few tempo runs" 2/21/2010 7:13PM - in reply to malmo Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

malmo wrote:
I wouldn’t now. But lets make it clear, we never heard of ten percent rules, we just went out and ran. The physics of low-impact aerobic training (mileage) was no different then than now. However, the psychology of low impact training has made a dramatic turn. Anyone who abides by the so-called ten percent rule is like a little kid playing with his food. If you want your dessert just eat your food and eat it now.


I hate to sound ignorant, but stress fractures and overuse injuries are fairly common among runners who ramp up their mileage too much, aren't they?
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