Complete lack of speed - any suggestions on how to improve it?

IMA penguin wrote:

I decided to do an all-out 400m and an all-out 200m on the track today. I first ran 59 seconds for the 400, then I got 27 seconds for the 200 after a long recovery. I want to run under 3:50 next year for the 1500 and I am almost at 80 miles/week, where I will stop. That probably translates to 57 and 26 since it was against a strong headwind and I was wearing flats. Any suggestions?

This might not be clear, so I'll emphasize that those times are not my PRs. I've run a 25.8 second 200 before, but that was during a race in track season when I tapered and did more speedwork.

Even taking that into account, the 25.8 second 200 is clearly not enough speed to run a 3:50 1500, and I do want to run a sub 4 mile someday. So, any ideas on improving speed without ruining my base?

get a live chicken and an old man

put on a gray 1976 sweatsuit w drawstring

let the chicken loose in a back alley

chase the chicken while the ol man yells at you to "catch the chicken rock"

when you catch that chicken you'll be faster than greased lightnin

usain bolt did this every saturday growing up in jamaica

IMA penguin wrote:

Okay, here's what's going on. Currently I am running 70 mpw in preparation for the 1500 next year. Right now I can run that distance in around 4:20 or so, although my PR is about ten seconds faster than that. Anyways, instead of doing my second easy run today I decided to do an all-out 400m and an all-out 200m on the track today. I first ran 59 seconds for the 400, then I got 27 seconds for the 200 after a long recovery. I want to run under 3:50 next year for the 1500 and I am almost at 80 miles/week, where I will stop. That probably translates to 57 and 26 since it was against a strong headwind and I was wearing flats. Any suggestions?

Buy some Lydiard training books. If you are training Lydiard-style, you oughta know that it doesn't matter how fast you can sprint NOW, but how fast you can sprint on the day of the big race, or during the time period when you plan to peak.

I think I have about your speed right now but I want to run under 2 minutes in the 800m. I am relatively new to running and my best is 2:03. I ran a 400m yesterday in 59 seconds and today in the same time in racing flats. I think I ran within myself since I didn't have to keel over when I was done but rather was able to go straight into a jog. I can run a few 100m repeats in the low 12s in flats with a flying start with a couple minutes recovery but I have a hard time maintaining speed after that. I am a relatively big guy at 175 lb 5'11".

I am building a base now starting to do mile repeats but also trying to improve my speed (or stay in tough with it) at the same time. Is that a bad idea? I don't know if this is a good idea but I want to run either a 400m or 300m almost every day at least at 15s/100m pace or faster at the end of each day with the goal being that they are relaxed with distance running form and easy. On easy days I will probably do after that a 4x200m with full recovery or a 8x100m at full recovery at 13s/100m pace but relaxed. Once a week I've also been doing steep hills in the neighborhood with the goal of having sort of a bouncing style. My favorite hill, I do on 3 minutes so 50s up and then job back down to start in time for the next three minutes.

I run on the same track as a former collegiate sprinter/mid-distance runner and it's pretty amazing how he can do 100m-400m repeats in 11s/100m pace with a flying start and not that much rest and look really relaxed doing them. He is tall with a big stride and pretty much all legs (and he's black). I have relatively short legs with big calves and thighs and behind and a long torso so I probably never had the ability to go as fast as that guy.

It isn't a speed workout but I thought that the interview with Maggie Vessey's coach talking about 'the connector' workout was interesting.

might sound minor...but 4-6 strides after each run (not including workouts) would help

(maybe not sub-4 help, but it would help)

also, i know of a guy who broke 4 and he started doing plyos and etc in the months before his big breakthrough

2:03 being new to running and in your 30's is excellent.

Keep doing what you're doing.

i think a 59, 2:03 is excellent. Or was your 400 meter time lower at your 2:03 time?

You're problem is endurance not speed.

Speedwork doesn't actually improve 'speed', it improves your ability to maintain speed.

View this logically:

3:50 is just a bit over 61 seconds per 400m.

Well then son, run 400m repeats at 61s. How many? I don't care. As many as you want? Start with 10. 10x400m is a time tested proven workout. Start with whatever rest you can manage and still maintain 61s 400m. Over time gradually drop the rest.

61s still too fast? Ok, run 62s or 63s. Whatever pace you can maintain for 10 reps.

You've run sub 26 for 200m, your problem is not speed.

Alan

Call up Rupp and ask if you can borrow some of Al's Special Sauce.

Runningart2004 wrote:

You're problem is endurance not speed.

Speedwork doesn't actually improve 'speed', it improves your ability to maintain speed.

View this logically:

3:50 is just a bit over 61 seconds per 400m.

Well then son, run 400m repeats at 61s. How many? I don't care. As many as you want? Start with 10. 10x400m is a time tested proven workout. Start with whatever rest you can manage and still maintain 61s 400m. Over time gradually drop the rest.

61s still too fast? Ok, run 62s or 63s. Whatever pace you can maintain for 10 reps.

You've run sub 26 for 200m, your problem is not speed.

Alan

I was talking about this yesterday. What does improve "speed" though? Hills?

After carefully reviewing this post I think that the best, most efficient method of dropping time is to cut the course of the race. This is a bit more difficult in the shorter races (i.e. the 1500 and the mile), but it is still posible. I typically try to shorten 1 of the laps by running across the infield on one of the laps. You do have to ensure that a carefully planned diversion is in place to deflect the attention of the witnessing officials/fans. But based on your presented times I think running under 3:50 for the 1500 is easilly achievable.

The question is do you need to improve speed or speed maintenance?

Bekele doesn't close in 25 seconds because he has speed, he closes in 25 seconds because he has trained to maintain speed. That's a difficult concept for young runners to grasp.

A distance runner improves speed simply by improving biomechanics. Hills sprints are great for this, as are short sprints at the end of your runs.

For speed maintenance I would try all-out sprints at the end of your workouts. Go run 4-5 x mile. Then finish with 4x400m then a single all-out 200m. The 400s and 200s should have near full recovery as the goal here is all-out speed while still somewhat fatigued from the mile repeats.

Alan

wave riderIII wrote:

I was talking about this yesterday. What does improve "speed" though? Hills?

Hills will give you strength, but to get speed, you need to get your legs used to moving fast. I do strides after most easy workouts, but they don't develop speed as much as just keep your legs fresh.

I read a thread on here last year about a guy who started doing all-out (or close to it) 200s once a week after each practice. He started with 2, and eventually got up to 5 or 6. Initially his times were around 27 or 28, and he worked it down to the 25s. It was a cool thread if you can find it, and the plan seemed to work.

mountain legs johnson wrote:

I read a thread on here last year about a guy who started doing all-out (or close to it) 200s once a week after each practice.

Once a week after each practice?

shoulda seen it coming wrote:

Once a week after each practice?

Yes.

must be tough running any sort of distance at all with a complete lack of speed.....it would take you almost infinite time to complete any distance

shoulda seen it coming wrote:

Once a week after each practice?

Take the "each" out. You get the idea.

That's the thread I was thinking of. He was even slower than I thought, starting out with high 29s.

wave riderIII wrote:

I was talking about this yesterday. What does improve "speed" though? Hills?

The best way to get better at something is to do it directly.

You use speedwork to get better at maintaining a certain speed.

So if you want to improve top end speed, then practice running at 100% speed. Do these in 60-100m dashes with FULL rest. Let go of the distance runner pride of only taking a minute recovery. You'll need to 5 minutes rest at least if you do a full 100m dash at 100%. Or you can do 5-10 second top effort sprints up hills. Same thing.