FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30

Sleepy, I also like talking running, so thanks for kicking this one off. Keep us up-to-date! Also, thanks for the encouraging words for a pretty simple post. I was very complimented by Gambler's wager that I was Hadd. Ha! Now that guy knows his stuff and I would unreservedly defer to whatever he says. If you haven't seen the Hadd/Cabral thread, IMO, I would structure a marathon program that can be gleaned from that. Then, the dude himself said I had a good post! Forgive me for gloating for too long, but that's really made my day.

Anyway, back in the day (~10+ years ago, and a newer edition of JD's The Running Formula, so some things may have changed a little) I carried about 70 xeroxed pages of that book in my work satchel, and I trained according to the schedules for about a year. Again, it's an excellent book. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to write such an ex phys book because while we know all the principles don't change, the application of the principles should be tweaked to each runner according to their relative strengths, weaknesses, likes, dislikes, and their running history!

Anyway, the schedules were simply good for giving me a plan, which the coach used to do. Now, I would rather develop my own as I went along. I would have a high-level plan for each 4-6 week block and give yourself flexibility to tweak according to your progress and based on how your feeling. Ah - I wish I knew then what I am pretty certain of now.

So, the workout I was talking about was the one with 4T, 10E, and then 4T at the end. We did the 4Ts as cruise intervals (1min rest). At the time, I figured the faster the mile repeats, the better. So, I was workin' it to run them under 5:10, figuring that 5:10 had to be better than 5:20. In retrospect, I know that I was borrowing from my old collegiate anaerobic ability to do these repeats, which was actually not going to give me the adaptations best suited for the marathon. So, of course hindsight is 20/20, but instead of making them so that I needed the whole minute to recover, the breaks should just be afterthoughts in which to get a drink of water or something - the pace being such that it would've been no big deal to skip a break (which I could not do with the 5:10s). In fact, doing the T miles continuously at 5:25 would've been even better.

Again, I am all for marathon specificity, but to me, that doesn't mean running all your tempo runs at 5:35 because that is what you plan to run the race at. I would run shorter tempos (less than 8m) at ~5:25ish and do A LOT of running at 5:45-6, which should feel pretty dang easy once you get started and are in the groove. Along with recovery days and the long run, this is all I would do in the last 8-10 weeks. Before that, I would train as though I wanted to improve my Half Marathon time. Maybe once or twice, I would set off to run 5:30-40 for 15-16m of a long run. If you can do that (and not feel too bad), then you should feel pretty confident that you're ready to roll.

You will be surprised at how easy the first half of a marathon will feel. As you surmised, it is TOTALLY different than the run your ass off and hang on feel of the collegiate races.

The other posters on this thread provided a lot of good insight - you can tell they are veterans to this game. One of the better threads here. Maybe it would be fun for you to give more info on your background (how far out of school are you, PRs, what could run right now for 5K, more slow-twitch or fast-twitch, injury history, etc.), and then maybe we could work on a plan (you would hit the jackpot if jtupper and Hadd chimed in) . Then, you could post up every couple of weeks to give the status of things. No doubt any coach would prefer to be able to see you multiple times a week. But, if that's not an option, I think this interactive method would be preferable to flying solo with the schedules in a book.

After you go sub2:30, your co-workers will say, "2:30 - is that a good time? Have you run Boston yet??!!!!??? Fred in marketing has qualified for and run that one like 5 times!!!!" Don't even try to explain... Just go ahead and agree wholeheartedly that Fred's THE MAN.

Letsrun Longtimer,

thanks for the good posts.

I have a naive question about Daniels' cruise intervals.

In his book, he gives a chart as to how to adjust the T-pace depending on the length of the run.

His true T-pace is for short tempos (i think up to 20 mins). Anything longer, the pace is adjusted.

But it isn't clear to me if this is done for cruise intervals as well.

I.e. do you run each of 4 x 2m T at the same pace as you would, say, a straight 8m tempo run? Or do you treat each of the 2m T as short fast true T-pace.

Seems like a good question to me. To tell you the truth, this adjusted T pace for longer sessions is a new update from the older version of The Running Formula that I had. I am glad he made this distinction though because I always felt (more after the fact) that he could certainly stand to have more than one T pace at each Vdot level - especially when each vdot ran the gamut from the mile to the marathon! For example, you could take the same guy - one season he's training for the mile and 5K and the 5:28 tempo pace for 4 miles will feel relatively easy pace-wise, but maybe a little long. Then, the same guy a year or two later training for the marathon at the same vdot level will find the pace pretty hard, but the session way too short. (And he sure as heck better be doing longer tempos... 2 X 4m at 5:30-5 would be good on the faster side and/or 10-12milers at 5:50-6:10pace would be great for this guy). Anyway, the pace of the Tempo runs, IMO, ought to be tweaked based more on which event your training for (which in turn likely drives the lengths of your tempo runs). I have to say, though, besides having an older version, it's also been awhile since I've read TRF. So, for all I know all of this may be explained.

Anyway, as to your question, OCD, I believe (but it would be great if jtupper came on here and clarified) that the cruise intervals were at his true T pace and that the straight 8 would likely be at his adjusted T pace. However, I am not sure if your OCD stands for obsessive compulsive disorder... if so, I can assure you that taking an OCD approach to your running is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it helps your running to get out the door and make it happen - even when you don't always want to. We can all relate to that and know that laziness doesn't make champions. On the other hand, you MUST let the internal feedback that your body gives you override what you have on the schedule.

So, let's say the schedule calls for 4 X 2m T at a some given pace. This pace should be faster than marathon pace and such that you probably could do it all continuously if need be and the rests are more incidental (and not absolutely critical to enable you to complete it... maybe even so that the next time you could see doing 2 X 4m at the same pace). IMO, I think it would be preferable to have the right feel (and maybe 5secs/mile slower than what the schedule has) than to go so hard to make it happen that you're utterly wiped. Don't be an OCD slave to the schedule - remember it's the overall training package that matters and there are a lot of dynamics for each individual circumstance that no book could account for. I guess my naive answer would be to not sweat the exact pace too much, but to let it come to you. If you're in the specific phase (last 2 months) for the marathon, I would have the T intervals be a bit faster than goal pace (maybe just 5-12 secs/mile faster, but they shouldn't be THAT hard, esp after the first mile), and then I would have the lion's share of the straight tempo runs be a touch slower than M pace.

Then again, maybe your initials really are OCD, and if that's the case I feel kind of silly going on about obsessive compulsive disorder - ha.

Thanks LL.

Well, yes, you got the idea of what OCD stands for...

And yes i was very much like that at first, but i have relaxed a bit especially since i have started to see real results in terms of improvement. I do listen to my body and i am more in tune with it. Nonetheless, i always need a starting guideline to make sense to me and then i go from there. So in terms of cruise intervals - i was kind of baffled about the exact pacing especially since Daniels does stress in his book about how important it is to get the pace correct for tempo runs and to not go too fast.

Btw, your answer about pacing for 4x2m T versus 8m T makes sense to me and i am going with it!

BTW, to the OP, Daniels has a very very hard workout near the end of the schedule which has a total of 15m at T. I think it is 5m+4m+3m+2m+1m. I have never completed that workout - i think will start with the 5m and work down until i can't go any more. Alternatively, perhaps larger breaks in between each segment in order to survive the whole thing?

The Hanson crew does similar workouts, but with longer breaks: 3x3 mile, 2x6 miles etc.

Alan

Great stuff goin on here. LL, as to my past history.... I ran for a NCAA Div. III school and graduated in 2005 (I just turned 25). Somehow i became more of a miler and ran 4:16 indoors. But I know that's not my real strength. Hence, my 5k PR is still from an indoor race in 2003 - 15:14 (I also ran this time on the roads last fall though); I'd think i could run that now though, on strength instead of speed. After graduation, i took off a bit of time - around a year and a half of decent running. Last year was my first year of really getting back into shape and built up to 80 mi/week for almost the whole summer - I got a wild idea to run a half marathon in the fall and ran 1:11:09. I loved it and put in a pretty good winter last winter - again 80 mi/week with 16-18 mi long runs in the freezy snow, ice, etc. this March I ran 25:19 8k in 25 mph winds and a 1:09:47 half.

What I'm wrestling with is if the 26 week (8 week base + 18 week JD) build up to the marathon might get too long. As an alternative, i was thinking of doing the JD marathon workouts the 12 weeks (instead of 18) leading up to the marathon. With the other 14 weeks I'd want to build a longer base phase with the occasional 1000-2000 meter interval workouts and run some good 8k/10k/Half races (Philly Half in Sept.). Also, have a good rest/down week before the last 12 weeks begin. This seems to maybe go along with your comments before about the last 8-10 weeks of the specific marathon work? How might you suggest extracting a good 12-week plan from the 18 weeks JD gives? I probably wouldn't really do any interval stuff if I did more of it prior. Like the OCD post, I can be a bit OCD and like your comments regarding the good and bad of that - I can get my butt out the door for a 12 miler at 1:00am before bed if I've missed my run that day, but when things don't go according to plan, I'm pissed for about a week and think everything's gone down the crapper. As you can tell with this whole forum, I'm a planner (not many people try to figure out what they'll be running day-by-day for the next half year), but I agree tweeking has it's place and experience (from others or oneself) usually is what makes the call at that time.

What are some of the backgrounds of others here?

Anyways, as for now, I'm just loggin the miles - 72 last week, 80 this week, the ten today felt (almost surprisingly) great after the 15.5 yesterday. But i do have some fresh legs, the week before last was total down-week, 25 miles maybe?

Great thread!

To OCD, that was a good question about pacing for cruises.

i think the "proof" that LL is correct (that one should use true threshold pace) is consider the difficult workout you mentioned: 5+4+3+2+1. If Daniels wanted us to adjust the pace to account for total time then that would amount to MP pace! (Since Daniels considers anything more than an 1 hour to be at MP and not TP). So i think that each segment should be at true T. He recommends a bit of E running in between, but i always take a walking/drink break.

Personally, my style is closer to what LL recommended - i know ballpark how fast i should be running but i really listen to my body on the day. Works for me. (I am not as speedy as you folks, i have a 2:48 PB).

To the OP, i would have two numbers, (say 2:30 and 2:26) in mind for my first marathon. Run the first half at 1:15 and then see how you feel. Your first marathon is a wild card. Good luck. Not sure if Philly is a good course but choose a nice fast course!

One more comment to the OP about Daniels formula.

Many people think/claim that the DRF tables give an ambitious prediction for marathon time, i.e. that the vdot level for marathon is 1 or 2 levels off. Keep that in mind.

Anyone can jump in to comment on this...

The thing about those Daniels tables is that they assume you train as well for the marathon as you do for shorter distances. Most people don't (they don't do enough mileage, long runs, marathon pace training, etc.). That's why most 15:00 5kers won't run 2:22 or whatever the tables predict for them.

A couple of comments about the latest posts. Dan, I know on letsrun everyone will say that 2:48 isn’t so great, but going by real marathon results, you know 2:48 is a good time. Maybe tons of those posters easily have the potential but have decided to get fat instead. I’d rather be like you and out there doing it. Plus, anyone would concede that one’s time, if it isn’t as stellar, doesn’t mean one can’t contribute or even be the best coach. Of course, everyone knows about Joe Vigil. I personally correspond with a group of guys who know their stuff, one of them, a highly intelligent runners runner just broke 3hrs after a couple of decades of consistent work. The whole group was as excited for him as we would have been for another to run sub220. The beauty of our sport is that while the times speak for themselves, you know when someone is going after it to be the best that they can be… and if they’re doing that, they’re welcome in any runner’s circle.

Regarding that 5,4,3,2,1T workout, though… that’s a newer one, but I am not sure if it really resonates with me. At the pace that we’re calling Daniel’s True T, I think it’s too much. An exceptionally fit runner might be able to complete (but even then would have to pretty much thrash themselves to do it). For Ryan Hall, that would all be at 4:38pace…. A bit aggressive. I’m thinking 2 X 10K at close to HM pace or just a straight 15 near M pace would be preferable to this one at the true T.

Also, I defintely agree that the equivalent performances chart doesn’t mean that everyone can do them straight across. Yes, most don’t do equivalent marathon training (which takes more time and patience), but more importantly I think is that not everyone has the same strengths (muscle fiber proportions). So, runners are not only going to be better on end or the other, but they might even be best suited for the very middle (5K & 10K). Examples of this would be Bekele, Geb, and Tergat. A Lot of people thought that when Tergat and Geb were going to take their game to the marathon, we’d be seeing 2:02 (which their Vdot would predict). Now, in retrospect, it makes sense that they were/are so awesome in the 5-10K not only because they’re supremely talented and do the work, but also precisely because it is their best event/distance. As times continue to improve, this specialization will only increase, and you won’t have someone like Viren who will medal in two events at the Olympics. Anyway, in general, it seems that the ST guys are more likely to have a straight line across all the distances, while most have the tendency to have stronger mile/5K times relative to the marathon. Part of it is figuring out where your strength is and then part of it is effectively training. In the case of Sleepy, I think he has a good chance over time of having a pretty close straight line across the events, but the only way we’ll know is after a very good stint of training for the marathon (maybe by his 3rd). His goal-range for this first one is right where it ought to be, IMO.

Sleepy, thanks for giving more background info. I think this has potential to be a very fun thread! On the one hand, I would respect if you preferred not to have the entire Letsrun world see your training and then find out who you were at the Phili marathon. I mean, it’s better to just go out and get it done rather than talk about what you’re going to do, right? In addition to having the LR armchair quarterbacks criticize you for putting your training out there (claiming that you’re an attention seeker), they will also critique your plan after the fact, call you out for little mistakes, and find other ways to be annoying or act superior… you know, the normal treatment… “I can’t believe you’re listening to coaches on the internet…blah blah blah”. However, on the plus side, I think there are a lot of runners who could benefit from a detailed account of seeing how it goes for you. This criticism may sting a little, but while the LR messageboard is great for informational purposes, it has slowly been becoming a little more runnersworld-ish over the years in that the overall running acumen has gone down. Also, if you don’t have a super solid accountability structure (though it appears you’re not at all in need), this could help that. Several friends of mine would definitely be watching over this thread and chiming in. Finally, I have emailed Hadd quite a few times (and he is extraordinarily helpful) and along with my own experience, he has by far had the biggest influence on my distance running outlook/philosophy (recognizing that there is more than one way). I would bet $10,000 that if you show a good faith effort, he would graciously be a significant contributor to the thread if we asked for his input (and he would be so much better than me at explaining the “Whys” and also provide a very good eye to see that we’re on the right track). Again, I think this would benefit many who are in the same boat as you.

Finally, I am right with you that after a bit of a base phase, 18 weeks of specific work is too long. I think that 6 weeks of a base phase sounds good (you don’t need much because your last year has been solid in that regard, though overall mileage has been kind of light… do you think getting up to 90-100 is possible?). Then, it may seem slightly paradoxical (but it’s not, and I can elaborate later), I would turn my attention to the 5K-HM training (still keeping decent volume, though) for ~8-9 weeks. One slight piece that I diverge from the plan you’ve developed so far is that I would go for a 10K/HM at the end of this period (beginning of Sept) instead of just 4 weeks out from the marathon. Then, the last 10 weeks would be the specific stage (with taper). Also, I think the down week every 6 weeks or so is a good idea. In light of the paragraph above, I was thinking that maybe we could start a new thread with Philadelphia Marathon in the title so that we can try to score you a comped entry (woohoo… maybe we can get some to compare you with Dean K, too!). We could devise a general plan together – afterall, no one knows you better that you. You give weekly detailed updates on how the week went. In the middle of every month, I would put suggestions for the next month’s workouts. Then, we could modify those to your situation as you like (within reason, of course) right then, and all of it should be open to tweaking on the day. Again, we would be going for a great overall training package, recognizing that while the package is made up of all the individual days, any individual day by itself is inconsequential.

You in? Think you’d be able to be so counter to the everyday LR culture? I think it would be fun, but I could certainly understand a preference to decline, too. If you’re game, I’ll write up your runner’s profile, and I’ll be guessing on half of it, so you’ll have to edit and correct where I guessed wrongly.

LL. wrote: ...I would turn my attention to the 5K-HM training (still keeping decent volume, though) for ~8-9 weeks. One slight piece that I diverge from the plan you’ve developed so far is that I would go for a 10K/HM at the end of this period (beginning of Sept) instead of just 4 weeks out from the marathon. Then, the last 10 weeks would be the specific stage (with taper).

Coincidentally, this nearly matches my plan for the rest of the year. The differences are that my next 8-10 weeks will be devoted to summer track (800-3000) instead of 5k-HM training, and my marathon goal is a little less ambitious than that of the OP (sub-2:40 would be nice). Other than that, though, the plan is the same.... a summer of faster work, a half marathon in September, and then Philly later in the fall.

Sorry, I know this doesn't relate directly to the discussion at hand. Sometimes I just say (type) whatever pops into my head.

Good luck, and have fun!

(I'm pretty sure I know who LL is...)

Pete, I am not sure if you know me. The Pete I know would've likely mentioned that it was funny that someone thought I was Hadd... Doh! A little bit of a miss there - or maybe a lot of a miss!

Hey all,

LL ( |-| @ Dd ) - I don't know if I eluded to a race 4 weeks out from the marathon before - but the Half i'm looking to run is the Philly Distance Classic - Sept. 21 - 9 weeks out.

As for the training plan / progress. I don't really want to do the whole public LR thing for all the reasons you mentioned. I'm kind of a loner when it comes to my training/running - I'm not one to paint it on the watertower. I would be interested in more of a private email set up with actual coaching/advise you and your friends/colleagues though - once/week updates or so. Let me know.

Never ever ever underestimate the benefits from a weekly 10 mile run, not raced just controlled effort in 54-57 minute range. You should be tired when you finish but knowing you could have gone harder and can still run a good workout the next day if that is what is planned. Getting so that 5:30's feel like your normal 2/3rds effort pace will make a well rested body in a racing mind feel like the 56:00 10 mile split of your marathon is no problem.

Never failed me, when my 10 milers were quick but controlled, I knew I was ready to race well.

Let's see 80 mpw average over 6 months with peak weeks of 105. Half marathon in 1:10 high about 6 weeks out. PRs of 15:50 for 5 km and 32:20 for 10 km at the time. This netted a 2:26:01 for me.

The only advantage I had over you was that this was my 4th marathon not my first. So ya, sub 2:30 is very doable for you.

go out in 4:00. try to hit the next mile in 4:00. take a 2 min walk break. cut the course. stop to take a crap. knock over a gatorade table. go Kenny Rogers on a camera man. by the half you should be around 49:07. fake a heart attack to confuse competitors. cut the course again. and sprint/walk the last mile. if you do all that right, you should do it easily.

Hey I am a coach, work with a team of competitive runners, quite a few of which are in the 221-27 range for the marathon. I would be happy to help you devise a program if you would like that. you can reach me at

jcerge@yahoo.com

hope all is well

Jason

I shoulda read more carefully, sleepy - sorry about that. You did say that the HM would be 9 weeks out (which is just about perfect) and that you might do a 10k four weeks out from the marathon which would be of lesser importance (I am not sure if I am as keen on that one as I am not really sure what the purpose would be). Also, you already said you were looking at bumping up to ~100 for 3-5 weeks assuming that all feels right - cool.

I can totally see how the from-the-watertower idea may not be your cup of tea. If I were in your shoes, it probably wouldn't be mine either. If interested in further weekly correspondence, that's cool. I basically was exactly in your spot a decade ago. You'd have to leave an address, though. Regardless, as Pete said, good luck and have fun! You do have the 226-230 in you this fall with good training, reasonable weather, and a well run race. Then after that, you can look forward to cutting a good chunk of time off that.

Go for it!