I am trying to use the following marathon training program from the Hansons:
http://www.runningtimes.com/rt/articles/?id=4447
Any suggestions? Will I get a BQ using this?
I am trying to use the following marathon training program from the Hansons:
http://www.runningtimes.com/rt/articles/?id=4447
Any suggestions? Will I get a BQ using this?
Yep, worked for me, ran 2:58 using it, after having run a best of 3:01 using Pfitzinger's program on 6 preceding races. My only augmentation was that I went 18 instead of 16 on one of the long runs. I think that the staggering of the speedwork before the longer interval sesions and the concentration of the weekly marathon pace run were probably the more important parts of the program; to me, whether you run 16 or 18 on the long runs is not as important as much as the length of time you spend and whether you run an even pace or faster pace for the last half of the long runs. Being confident of whether the program would actually work was my biggest hurdle/mental block, but I'm over that now - I felt the best that I've ever felt during any marathon and PR'ed even though I stopped during the race for two pee-breaks.
Is this you first marathon? If not, what type of training have you done in past marathons? Have you followed other generic plans?
I do only about 6 20+ milers for a build up to a marathon. But I will do at least three 15+ mile runs per week and an additional run where I hit MP pace sometimes for as long as 10 miles. I feel if I string a number of semi long runs together I can simulate the tired effects of late in the marathon and have enough strength to get out and do the same type training the next day. Which is the same concept of the schedule the Hansons put out.
The issue I have with their schedule is that it is way too weak for the advanced runner. I'm quite sure Brian Sell is not training that way.
otter wrote:
The issue I have with their schedule is that it is way too weak for the advanced runner. I'm quite sure Brian Sell is not training that way.
Nor is it intended for the advanced runner - it's targeted toward mid-level marathoners.
A key rebuttal to the criticism of "well, I bet their elites do more than that" came from Kevin Hanson in the article:
"Sure, theyÕll do a 20 to 22 miler, but itÕs part of a 130-mile week. So itÕs actually a smaller percentage of their total volume than it would be for someone doing less mileage."
Having written the article last year I decided to put it to the test for Philly this year. Pretty much followed the plan, exc. too wound up running many of the marathon pace workouts too fast, so they morphed into tempo/strength runs instead.
Bottom line is I felt better than in any recent marathon, never came close to hitting the Wall and didn't really start to feel that dead-leg tired until about 24-25 miles.
All in all, I'd recommend it, with a few observations:
You've got to be able to do some fairly long/hard workouts during the week. So if your job/lifestyle limits that, you might be better off with a plan that allows you to load a couple big workouts into the weekend.
For me, at my advanced dotage, I find that 20-milers totally knock the crap out of me. I'm a couch potato for the rest of the day, and can't really do any significant training for the following 2. In contrast, 16 is much more doable, both mentally and physically. Now, on the Hanson schedule, you'll have to do a medium/long run (8-10) the very next day but that is the entire point of their plan, to run when you're tired. After the first few miles, I found my legs came to life surprisingly well; on weekend I ran the last 10 of the NYC Half after doing 16 the day before, and was flying the last 6 miles. And based on my experience in Philly, your body gets used to this scenario. In fact, I'd say if you run the first 16-18 miles of your marathon under control, then let loose, you'll turn in big negative splits, and have an enjoyable and successful experience.
The biggest hurdle to the Hanson plan is mental - all your buddies are doing their 20 milers, and you'll be thinking you're way underprepared. But once you get past that, you'll be fine.
I trained one year with a group in grand rapids out of the gazelle store there, the coach at the time was denny myers and he was the same way about the long runs really tried to get people to not do more than an 18 miler for a long one. but he also said that we were not going to run 2:20 doing this ether. so yeah i think it is a great way to go
Better Hansons training:
the problem is that it doesn't prepare you for the actual distance. the only way this program has a chanc is if you have been running for several years and have lots of long runs under your belt. also, there is the threat of injury from doubling a long run and a hard run back to back off of low mileage. seriously, the benefits of doing a longer, more marathon appropriate long run vastly outweight the pseudo-scientific benefits of reducing your long run to make it a function of weekly mileage. there weas a thread on this earlier in the year in which this was debunked.
You're wrong, but that's your right.
[quote]JimG wrote:
[quote]otter wrote:
Nor is it intended for the advanced runner - it's targeted toward mid-level marathoners.
The article said the schedules were for both beginner and advanced marathoners. I'm not knocking the program for the average runner, just saying that it is too weak for an advanced marathoner.
I completely agree with you as far as my own training is concerned. When I put in a 20+ run it knocks me out of the game too long to be beneficial. I still see some importance in it though so I end up doing them but with a frequency of about once every 2 1/2 - 3 weeks. The rest of the time I'm building on the 13-17 milers. I find that I can do at least three of these types of runs aerobically per week without running too slow from fatigue.
The general idea of their program is to be consistent with training and it's an important message that is often overlooked.
I've wanted to try a hansons schedule but have never been able to figure out precisely what to do. the RT articles seem ambiguous regarding which speed workouts to do when, what the strength workouts comprise (are they just the speed workouts x2 at a pace 10 seconds faster than MP?), etc.
JimG? TIA
there's a schedule linked from that rt article
otter wrote:
The article said the schedules were for both beginner and advanced marathoners. I'm not knocking the program for the average runner, just saying that it is too weak for an advanced marathoner.
They define "advanced" vs. "beginner" based on marathon experience.
Keith & I spoke once about how someone above that level (sub-elite?) would alter the schedules, but it slips my mind right now. I'll try to get some clarification on that, as well as the speed/strength sessions, when I speak next time, which should be today or tomorrow.
uhh dont think so. even the writer of the article came on here and admitted there was some exaggeration about how good the program was.
I know you don't, but that's immaterial. The writer is posting on this thread yet I still don't see anything that'd support the nonsense you're spouting here.
it was on another hanson thread, i dont htink it was on the SOS one. I can't seem to find it but there are a lot of pages to wade through. he basically admitted that he wrote the article the way he did (trumping up things) to make it more headline catching.
un chat wrote:
it was on another hanson thread...I can't seem to find it...
How convenient.
Because there's no definitive answer to this question "How do you effectively train for a marathon"? we'll keep debating the question.
As they say "your mileage may vary," and it literally does. I'd define effective as getting the quickest time off the least amount of mileage necessary for you to run that time. That is, run as much as you can (given the constraints of the rest of your life) until the extra miles aren't making you a better runner. Over time, of course you can and should extend that amount of mileage
The marathon's a long aerobic event, and up to a point it doesn't matter too much how you divide up the mileage so long as that's working for you.
Personally, I've been doing a 20 miler (=2:25-2:35 at easy pace, not jogging, but not steady state) regularly enough that I am used to it and find it effective. If I stretch the long run out to 22 or 24 (rarely take gels on these long runs, and deliberately so), the recovery is somewhat more prolonged. If I do 24 miles Sunday I'm not doing a workout Tuesday morning as I'm still (slightly) glycogen depleted, but I may do a medium-long run on Tuesday. If the long run is relatively short (say 17-18 miles) then I'll tend to do it a little quicker and will be able to turn around and do another quality day two days later.
There's no need to choose between these approaches -- they both are of benefit at different points in the schedule. My preference, since it's what seems to have worked for me, is that 3-6 months out from the marathon I'll do the longer, slower runs and worry more about volume than quality. In the last 12 weeks I'll make the longer runs a little shorter and try to get them a little quicker, and do the same thing with the medium long runs. Of course, many of these will be planned quality sessions within the long run or medium-long run.
More generally, I don't think it's surprising that people report making breakthroughs with Hanson's training. While consistency is a great thing in training, when that becomes monotony you can get stuck at the same level. If you're getting too comfortable with Pfitzinger's approach switching to Hansons slightly different approach is likely to have benefits because you're giving the body a different stress. Providing you recover from that stress, of course people come back better.
un chat wrote:
uhh dont think so. even the writer of the article came on here and admitted there was some exaggeration about how good the program was.
I don't believe I ever said any such thing. See my longer post on this thread. I think it's a great program. But so is Pfitzy's, Daniels, et al. You have to find one that works best for you. For me, right now, it's Hansons.
Steve Walker wrote:
I am trying to use the following marathon training program from the Hansons:
http://www.runningtimes.com/rt/articles/?id=4447Any suggestions? Will I get a BQ using this?
Steve, YES. If you are capable of getting a BQ, then this is definitly the program to use. I understand wy so many people have a hard time understanding the science because it comes from practical experience and not a laboratory. But it works. I think that the Hansons have a better grasp of the marathon than any other current american coach.