Ben Dawson and Westley Keating??

Another law guy wrote:

I'll bet you two tubes of Dieter Baumann's toothpaste that anything that people would write in a letter like you suggest WOULD have to stand up in a court of law when all the signators and LetsRun.com get sued for defamation. Credit goes to anyone so dedicated to the integrity of the sport that they publish those types of allegations, but don't think it wouldn't be messy afterwards.

It probably would go to court, but the burden of proof is on the plantiff, and they'd be hardpressed to win a case like that.

umm keating almost died because of epo

Re: burden of proof. The burden on the plaintiff in defamation cases is not as substantial as you think, and it can flip right over to the defendant. In most jusridictions, the plaintiff basically only has to prove it is a defamatory and published statement, then the defendant has the burden to prove it is true, if that is his defense.

Don't want to turn this into a law board, but the point is that publishing this stuff is legally risky. In his invitation for publicly accusations of people doping, Rojo was too cavalier about the consequences.

I also think LetsRun.com is too cavalier about letting people's names and reputations get hugely trashed here based on anonymous rumor. They should be screening this stuff out, for ethical reasons if not legal ones.

Whatever, why don't you reveal yourself so that we can bad mouth you and find things suspicious about you, chicken pussy!

I agree with Another Law Guy for several reasons. The first is personal, and the second is practical.

While I think Rojo is right about our obligation to take a pro-active role in rooting out those using peformance enhancing drugs, we also owe it to the sport (and its athletes) to have a substantial and proven basis for our accusations. I think that basis should be a positive drug test rather than the credibility of someone who claims to have been a roommate, or a friend of a friend, etc. Reputations are precious. If a guy like Ben Dawson is coming out of school and looking for a slot with the Hansons or the Farm Team, rumors (with little supporting them but anonymous posters) could have a detrimental effect on his ability to gain acceptance to one of these programs. I personally feel like our first obligation is to innocent, hardworking athletes who achieve success. I\'m not sure they should be the ones to bear the consequences of our dissatisfaction with the sport\'s drug testing system.

Second, as a practical matter, these things do get messy legally. Allegations of drug use could turn out to be true, and truth is an affirmative defense to a defamation action. The problem is that to prove the truth of an allegedly defamatory statement almost always requires a defendant proceed all the way to trial. In some cases, a defendant in can dispose of the action at an earlier stage (summary judgment) before a judge, but that\'s rare because, for a number of reasons, juries (not judges) decide disputed factual issues, i.e., the truth of a defamatory statement. As any lawyer will tell you, getting through a trial can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. The cost would cripple most websites.

I\'m not saying Letsrun.com has published defamatory statements. But, if Letsrun.com were to take a letter from an alleged Westly Keating roommate and affirmatively post it on the board, regardless of whether that lettter is true or not, Letsrun.com and the roommate could (and most likely would) find themselves on the wrong end of a lawsuit that would be quite costly to defend.

texas sucks.

Okay, hold up. Ya\'ll have your facts mixed up.

1- Dawson was not Keating\'s roommate when Keating was busted with them. His roomate at the time is a former HS friend of mine. I know Keating and my friend were no longer roomates after the incedence because a few threats were made. I don\'t know if Dawson and Keating roomed together afterwards. Also, Keating didn\'t stay in a dorm. He was in an off campus apartment when he got cought by his roomate.

2- It has been revealed how Keating got the drugs (stealing from the pharmacy). So the claim that it is too expensive or hard to get doesn\'t stand up.

3- It has been revealed that he started taking EPO while in HS. So saying that him being a footlocker finalist in HS doesn\'t mean much. If anyone remembers the South Region when Keating got 6th they will remember that he ran in the front almost the whole way. A month or so before the race he couldn\'t even get in the top 10 at an average TX HS meet.

4- Keating\'s family history is pretty bad and Vig had some sympathy on him because of his up bringing.

5- Someone said, \"it is way too hot there to take epo for example because he would run the risk of dehydrating himself, leting his blood get too thick and running the risk of a stroke.\" I would liek to remind you that he did almost die at PreNats last year. He had to be taken to the hospital because he did suffer a stroke. During the remaining months at UT he had to have some blood drained a few times to make sure that this didn\'t happen again.

If this really is the UT-PanAm coach, then you basically admit that he is above and beyond the abilities of a good college runner and hint that he might be on something. You said,

\"He doesn\'t accumulate much lactic acid at all. It\'s quite awesome, anyway. It\'s like his body has a governor for the really fast races, but unleash him over 10K and he can maintain.\"

I would like to know what you think EPO does. From the research I\'ve done, what you just mentioned is exactly what EPO allows an athlete to do. It slows down the accumulation of lactic acid and allows athletes to run at an amazingly fast pace for farther than they should be able to.

[quote]Jesse wrote:

If anyone remembers the South Region when Keating got 6th they will remember that he ran in the front almost the whole way. A month or so before the race he couldn't even get in the top 10 at an average TX HS meet.

Thats not how epo works. It doesn't make you good by just taking it. And it sure doesn't make you go from decent to great in 1week-1month time period. SO your facts that your stating about him going from his state meet to FL doesn't hold up.

actually, EPO DOES MAKE YOU BETTER INSTANTLY. well, not 'instantly,' but it takes only a few weeks for your marrow to produce more red blood cells, which in effect increases your VO2 max while lowering your lactate accumulation. read some scientific studies! in 6 weeks, subjects dropped ~5% off a 5k...think about that, that's going from 15min to 14:15...just for sticking a needle in your butt.

get some facts.

there's NO way that ben is dirty. known the kid since before i came out to UT for grad school...he just never committed before. the guy ran 30:17 as a soph, and then just plateaued for a while...the potential was always there, but the, ahem, lifestyle didn't reflect the goals.

congrats to benny, and i for one would stick my own reputation on the line that he's clean.

and i, unlike some of you out there, post my name and would gladly reply.

greg

thats six weeks Texas states is 1-2 weeks from FL south, i do have my facts straight. He also ran like crap at FL nationals, and people said its because he ran out, EPO doesnt work like that either

if you read the post stating the time from whence he ran crappy to 'came from nowhere,' it states that he ran badly in an average texas meet, NOT the state meet. those 'average meets' would be, assuming that person was not referring to texas regionals, 5-7 weeks prior to the nationals race.

and EPO does not take 6 weeks to have its effect--it take 4-6 for peak effects, and red blood cells are produced in significant enough number to measure within 7-10 days of first administration. think about it as you getting faster every day for 6 weeks without doing anything. it's not like a timer goes off on day 40 and you drop a minute off your times...it comes, little by little, and plateaus after a few weeks.

so yes, he certainly could have. and no, you still don't have facts.

make that texas and epo suck. texas sucks more.

Ben Dawson has always been super talented. He had showed the ability in high school and right away at Texas but has always been injury prone it seems like. However, the last two years he has not been injured I don't think so it is really no surprise. He was around 10th at regionals in cross this year I believe and has been close to all-american for a number of years in cross now. His finish in indoors was a surprise but he has made steady improvements throughout college. Keating on the other hand. He is a strong suspect as a cheater and should be watched more closely than other NCAA athletes in my opinion. He got kicked off the UT team or transferred very quietly even though he was their best runner BY FAR that year in cc. Suspicious. Nothing will be done about it unless one of those guys from the UT team came out and said what happened. But why would they do that, they all want to run and them revealing information like that would probably lead to them not competing for that university anymore.

Texas does blow! and why do they get a Nike commercial. I dont care if they are just actors in the commercial...that program is not that great.

OF COURSE HE IS ABOVE AND BEYOND THE ABILITIES OF A GOOD COLLEGE RUNNER, as is Torres, Ritz, Webb, Luchini, Sage, etc. His ability to tolerate lactic acid is what makes him special as a distance runner. So, I guess if someone, like myself who has an 81 kg/mL VO2 Max, that should make me ILLEGAL AND ON DRUGS because that is above the average of a good college runner? Why do you think Prefontaine was so special, because of his hard work and genetics. EPO has nothing to do with lactic acid. I was in a study researching the effect of EPO. Get your facts straight. Oh, and if Keating suffered a "stroke" as you say, than where is he paralyzed? What side of his face? Losers, all of you.

Why do so many people want to accuse others of being on drugs. Are those people struggling in their running right now. I dont think that Dawson is on drugs. Things just started to click for the guy right now. He probably has gained some good confidence in racing and is ready for the next level. I dont know this guy, but i hope that he will continue to run well. It's good to see some of these guys run fast, it only makes guys like me want to train harder and break to the national level. The way I look at it... If they can do it, so can I. Dont accuse so much...give the benefit of the doubt and rise to the occasion.