Question for Renato Canova on long runs under the threshhold

Firstly I have to say that I appreciate willingness of Mr. Canova to share his knowledge with others.

I'm happy that there are discussinons going on about training proces, becouse when there is a good disscussion and comparison of experiances from the real world we can all have really good infos and great benefit.

About your question 4:10 runner : I have to say that i'm unable to open previous thread (Aerobichouse thread) so I have a lack of infos (how long this runs are, how long this athlete have been training, his previous running programs, and a lot of other athletes attributes..), but I will try to give an opinion.

I think that whether someone should prolong this runs or just run them faster depends on the event the athlete is training for (1500m, 5000m ...). In my opinion if the athlete is at the begining of his career he should firstly prolong this aerobic runs, and later in his career (now having bigger aerobic base) he should go for faster runs.

I think that training is like a pyramide, the biggest part is of slow runs, and the faster the run is the less of them you need.

One more opinion, if for example at the first year of your training you run on normal runs at pace 5.00/km - it gives some level of stimuli to your body. If at your third year of training you want the same stimuli you need to run longer or a bit faster, so I think it's important to find the right mixture of runs performed at higher speed and of longer ones. Over your career you have to gradually pick up the speed and the length of your normal runs.

But anyway this is just my opinion, and better; let us just wait for Mr. Canova.

In my training I refuse to have a choice between to EXTEND the distance at the same pace and to INCREASE the intensity in the same distance.

In my experience, these 2 parameters work together.

I don't want to speak about the case of the woman having 15'20", because who wrote about this case was not the real Renato (and this is the reason because the thread was cancelled...), also if his training phylosophy was very similar to mine.

In any case, during winter my main aim is to build ENDURANCE and STRENGTH. For the first, of course I use a lot of long run at different speed :

a) We start with 40' going in one week at 1 hr at comfortable pace (for example, in the case of an athlete running 14' in 5000 or 3'45" in 1500m, a pace of 3'40" per km or 5'53" per mile)

b) After this short introductive period, we move in 2 directions :

1- We extend the distance at the above pace till 1 hr 30' in the next 3 weeks

2- We try to increase the speed of 1 hr using the system of PROGRESSIVE RUN (for example, the last 20' run at 3'20" or 5'20"), extending the fast part of running till when the full hour is at the same fast pace

3- At the same time, we start to put in the program some session for STRENGTH, combining exercises of reactivity, technical exercises and short sprints uphill, carried on at the maximal intensity (otherwise, it's not possible to develop strength).

c) When we are able to do this, we have another period where we develop our training in this way :

1- If the athlete is a specialist of 10000m / HM, his long continuous run at the pace of 5'50" per mile can be extended, once per week, till 2 hr. If is a specialist of 1500 / 5000 or steeple, can remain of 1 hr 30' using some final progression.

2- Once per week, there is a LONG FAST RUN, that in the case of a runner of 10000/HM is between 20 and 25 km, and the athlete try, week after week, to run a little bit faster. In the case of an athlete for steeple / 5000 the distance is between 15 and 25 km, for a specialist of 1500m between 12 and 18 km.

3- These 2 different training are in the program every week, with 3 full days of interval in between (for example, on Monday the longest, on Friday the fastest).

4- In the middle (in this case, on Wednesday) we start to work for SPEED ENDURANCE, alternating FARTLEK (sessions lasting about 1 hour with mixed distances, for example

6' + 1' + 5' + 2' + 4' + 3' + 3' + 4' + 2' + 5' + 1' + 6' fast (42' global fast work) with 2' easy recovery (22') giving a total time of 1 hr 04'), or long intervals on track (for example, 3000 + 2 x 2000 + 5 x 1000 + 6 x 500m, recovery after 3000 and 2000 in 3', after 1000 in 2', after 500 in 1'30")

5- During the other days (Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday) we use long and easy run (never less than 18 km, till 25 km, at comfortable pace) and exercises for STRENGTH, extending there execution in order to increase the STRENGTH ENDURANCE.

d) Only after these periods, when the AEROBIC BASE is consolidated, we start to put the real training of speed.

When we start with this, we cant use a weekly program, but our microcycle lasts 2 weeks, because NEVER WE GO TO REPLACE THE LONG RUN, BUT WE GO TO ADD SPEED TO THE PROGRAM ALREADY USED.

One of the most important points is : NEVER WE HAVE TO LOSE WHAT WE WERE ABLE TO BUILD BEFORE. Training is not to replace, but to ADD.

What would be the winter training for the fast-type 800 athlete? Thank you.

Thank you Mr. Canova for this infos.

If i understand this correct, you start with pure aerobic work and than step by step you put into the program more and more fast running.

I have one more request: Can you please write something like progression of workouts for a runner that is at the begining of his career. Let's say boy 16years, training for one year (almost pure aerobic work), and he is european.

As i know that it takes long time to build aerobic house, i'm interested in how much of his training will be in aerobic way.. and maybe how to progress throuh winter-spring-summer.

Thank you , Luka

Renato,

What you have said goes in line with training being more specific as athletes go through the training phases. Can you explain what you meant in the quote below in the Peter Winter thread:

"Under this point of view, the secret for a correct beginning of the activity is tu use SPECIFIC TRAINING FOR DEVELOPING THE GENERAL TRAINING. It seems a nonsense, but is really the key for coming back at top level for hite runners."

How can specific training develop the general training?

Thank you Renato

Personally, I never met a scientist that was good coach, because they want to use athlete in function of training, not training in function of the athletes. Don't forget that the most important problem to solve is to make easy what is difficult, and for this goal we need to be very simple, natural in our approach, bringing our athletes to train more without too much pressure from hard workouts. That's the reason because too much hard training is a mistake, because athletics become a contunuous examination, no more a pleasure. You can train hard preserving the ability of enjoying training, instead too many times athletes think that training is a must, and lose their nervous energies in fighting in training. Many runners leave good result in practice but have little energy for good result in races. Under this point of view, we have much to learn from African runners. When we are able to learn from them, we can teach our runners not to train too hard and have gas in the tank for races. I teach my runners that gas must be in the tank for you to drive the car. If athlete is always taking gas from the tank then he will be on empty soon and not be able to run fast when it is the time to do so. That is why my training puts gas in the tank and progression is important. Yes it is true, that at the end of season my athletes use gas with "el medio" workouts and other hard tempo tests. But it is after the gas tank is full that we can even start to think about this type of training.

There is an interaction between SPECIFIC and FUNDAMENTAL training (we can also call this training GENERAL, or BASIC). I give you an example :

a) One athlete is able to run 10 x 400m in 60" with 60" recovbery. At the end of his training he has 14 mml of lactate. After this, for one month he increase the volume of BASIC training, extending the distance and qualifying the duration (see my example in the other post). Also, he starts to insert some training with long intervals, and continues to use short sprint uphill for increasing his strength.

b) One month later, he goes again on track, running 10 x 400m in 60" rec. 60". At the end, the level of lactate is 11 mml, so we ask him to continue, till when is able to reach the same level of before (14 mml). He is able to run other 3 times.

c) This means that his INTERNAL LOAD is the same, but his EXTERNAL LOAD shows a good improvement : 10 x 400 in 60" are now 13 x 400 in 60" with the same effort. If we ask him to run 10 x 400m, rec. 60", reaching a final lactate level of 14 mml, he can now run in 58" / 59" with the same INTERNAL LOAD.

d) So, the SPECIFIC TRAINING was able to give more speed endurance at the athlete with the same INTERNAL LOAD, and the BASIC TRAINING was able to support the athlete for improving his SPECIFIC TRAINING.

It's important to understand that, in a modern methodology, VOLUME and INTENSITY must be developed in the same period, because ONE is the support of the OTHER.

This is the real difference between the system of Lydiard, when athletics was different because there were no 2 periodizations and the seasons were very much shorter, and the athletic of today. Who understand the athletics of today, never allows the athletes to lose what they were able to build during the season. Of course, during winter the quality goes a little down, but not too much. In other words, an athlete able running 1'43" in 800m, also out of his specific period, NEVER can run slower than 1'47", because always has to maintain his SPEED (not SPEED ENDURANCE) when tries to enhance his endurance, and a Marathon runner able to run 2:08:00 NEVER can run slower than 2:13:00, also during the period used for enhancing his AEROBIC POWER with cross and short races on the road.

I completely agree with you Renato. I'm a Slovenian, 21 years old, and I can tell one example from Slovenija: I have seen programs of almost all Slovenian distance runners and I have been there when they run. What I have seen was a lot of high-end lactic workouts with poor aerobic base. And they start using this super fast interval work from the early age. I have seen hundret times boys 14-16 years doing this "killer" intervals.

2-3 years ago I was training with a groop of boys around 20years old (I wasn't their coach, but one of athletes, and we run together- coached by the same guy). And when I see Renato's words:"instead too many times athletes think that training is a must, and lose their nervous energies in fighting in training." I can well remember how we were talking about this hard training - we were in some way afraid of it. And after intervals we were shaking, unable to even walk for some time - so much exhausted.

And consequence of this is that half of those boys don't train athletics anymore (becouse don't see the reason to torture themselves), and the other half have a stagnation or eaven decrease of results.

The problem is that in our world nobody has the patience to build the body and mind of an athlete. And to sacrifice that you don't have the best results in first few years. Everybody wants to be the best in one month, and that is not possible.

One question for you Renato:

I was training for two years heaving a lot of interval work, speed work and strength work, but little aerobic running. In this 2 years I was injured many times - I even had stress fracture. After this period I realised that for sure something have to be wrong with my training. I start studying about distance running.

I changed my program of running completely, and now i'm training about 6months withhout any big problems. My program looks something like that

M: Normal run 30min + technichal exercises

T: worm up, fast aerobic run 20min, cool down

W: Normal run 30min

T: Rest

F: Progressive run 40min - last 10min faster

S: Normal run 30min

S: Rest

Something like this is my normal week... I use also long run 80min, long run on hilly terrain, and some sprints uphill.

This is just a basic training which I will use for some time and than in next years i will include more intensity.

I have interest in running events on track from 1500-5000, but i use little volume, to make sure of no injury. I will ofcorse step by step use more volume. This spring my volume will be around 50-60 km a week.

I'm interested in what you think about going for this basic work for some years and than try with intensity.

Thank you

Luka; I am a Canadian coach who is very interested in all of Renato's comments. I try to use much of his theory myself, and am glad to say that my own theories were fairly consistent with Renato's to start with.

He often doesn't have the time to respond to individual requests, so in case he doesn't I will add a comment for you.

Your program looks fine and is consistent with Renato's general program, but it might be too little.You are 21. What is your level? It is hard to run 3:45 off of that amount of work, and certainly 14:00 would be out of the question. If you are aiming at 4:00, then you may be ok, and then progress each year. But 80-100k is not too much volume for a serious 21 year old.

You should add in the long interval session 3k-2k-1k once every two weeks.

Best wishes to you.

This is beautiful prose, thank you. Grasshoppers, this is IT in a nutshell.

Luka, I understand you had injuries before, but your training is really too soft for reaching results of high level. With 60 km per week is not possible to become a real good runner.

I think that, increasing the volume of long run, you don't risk any injury. At the moment, you use only 5 sessions per week, but 2 of them are very poor (30 min easy run).

Don't worry about more training, what can kill your body is the high intensity, not some more km.

For which reason you don't train every day ? You cannot increase your mileage with a little percentage only, starting from 60 km. You can immediately move to 100 km (running 6 times per week, this means an average of 10 miles or 16/17 km per day), that we have still to consider a very little mileage for a runner.

Tnx for your response.

The reason I run only 5 days a week is in injurys. I understand that this training is soft, and to little, but I wanted to increase volume little by little. Maybe in 2 years reaching 120km a week or more...

For the begining I think going to somewhere 70km and try to develop into 90km a week till spring... this will be a big step for me... :) And later ofcorse I want to be able running 160-200km a week, but in few years.

Ok this is abut volume, what about training seasons, you think it's ok... ofcorse i will later develop it into some long intervals, tempo runs... in next years

Renato

Why do you refuse the microcycles ?

We want to know.

Thanks.

Thank you Renato, this is extremely helpful.

Just a couple of questions. Both the farkleck session you mention in which 42 minutes of fast running is included, and the example of the long track session you cited, are very long sessions. Would specialists of 1500 to 5000m carry out these types of sessions or would they be shortened slightly? Also, would these sessions be run at paces close to what we might consider threshhold pace? e.g., would the track session be run at a pace of say 3:00 to 3:05 per km for a 14:00 runner or 3:20 per km for a 4:00 1500m runner?

Finally, once you switch to the two week cycle after the aerobic base has been consolidated, would you have the athlete do just one long run over these two weeks to maintain what they have built, (e.g. 90 minutes with the last 20 for progression) for a 1500m-5000 runner? Do you continue to focus on building strength at this point through the short hill sprints at full intensity? How late in the season do you continue with the hill sprints?

Thank you once again for your guidance and for sharing your knowledge.

If you think about every different speed in training as a different mean of training, you understand that there are several means of training to put together. In my phylosophy, a difference of 20" per km during long run, or of 10" > 5" per km during intervals, are different means of training.

So, for example, we can have this types of sessions (athlete of 14' in 5000m) :

1- Rigeneration (slow run, slower than 4' /km)

2- Long slow run (1 hr 30' till 2 hr) at 4'/3'40" per km

3- Long moderate run (1 hr till 1 hr 30') at 3'40" / 3'25"

4- Long fast run (45' till 1 hr 10') at 3'25" / 3'10"

5- Medium fast run (30' till 45') at 3'10" / 3'

6- Short fast run (20' till 30') at 2'55" / 3'05"

7- Long Intervals (3000 / 2000m) at 2'50" / 3'

8- Medium intervals (1000 / 2000m) at 2'45" / 2'55"

9- Short intervals (600 / 1000m) at 2'30" (600) / 2'45"

10- Speed endurance (400 / 600m) at 2'20" / 2'35"

11- Speed (150 - 300m) fast at 90-95% of max speed

12- Overspeed (60 - 200m) at max intensity

13- Sprint uphill

14- Mixed Fartlek

15- Circuits for strength endurance

How you can see, it's not possible to put all these types of training in a microcycle, if the microcycle is shorter than 1 month. So, I prefer to have specific periods between one competition and the next one, when I'm far from the final target, using the competitions like training, but planning the training according the period and the competition, not facused but in any case interesting, that the athletes go to run.

In other worlds, because athletes are professional and from their results during the season depend how much they can earn, not only from ONE result, I need to put together the necessity to last at 90% of the best shape for long time, and the necessity to reach the peak of 100% for the most important day of the year. Don't forget that, if we speak about African athletes, they don't have any Federation paying for their training : no salary, no support, the only source of money are the competitions, and we must organise their activity in order to follow the real situation.

Renato,

Thanks for all the great information on training.

1) you measure lactate levels on your athlete's post workouts but if one doesn't have a lactate measuring tool what is the second best way to measure progression in training, eg. by perceived effort, heart rate

2) you mentioned the 10x400m workout and described improvement after a month with external and internal load, what if after one month the athlete did not show any external load improvement, what would be the cause of this and how would you proceed with the athlete's training then

Renato,

Would you be able to describe a potential workout involving overspeed runs (60-200m) at max intensity? Do you reccomend using this type of training only close to races?

Thanks

a) I never measure lactate level of my athletes. I measured some time, only for having objective data that I use as IAAF lecturer, but normally I don't use to measure lactate, also because the most part of training for my athletes is in high altitude, and there the parameters about lactate become very much different from sea level.

If you want to refer everything to the heart rate, the control is not perfect, but in any case can be give some good information. You have to look at the INTERNAL LOAD. In this case, your training works well when, at the same speed, your heart rate is lower, and, at the same heart level, you are able running faster.

b) A good coach cannot depend on the tests of his training, but has TO BUILD SOMETHING DIFFERENT WITH HIS TRAINING. Training is a project, there is no casuality in any project. But there is, sometimes, something put of control of the athlete and the coach : for example, some injury (casual, like a sprain, for example, or some accident not connected with training), or a very bad weather, or a sickness.

A coach of experience can manage all these casualities in the best way, BUT HAVING ALWAYS THE CONTROL OF THE SITUATION.

Many times I explained that, in a period of training (for example, 100 days for preparing WCh), we MUST know every day the real situation, and every day is THE FIRST DAY OF A PLAN LASTING the remaining days to the competition. So, after 10 days of your big plan, YOU ARE IN THE FIRST DAY OF A PLAN OF 90 DAYS, and so and so.

About accident, for example, I had the very bad injury of Shaheen, provoked by an impact against the door of his car, exactly in the middle of his knee. Nothing to share with his training. However, after 17 months without improving he had a surgery, and only now starts to be fit again. During the period of his problems, we had two different visions about the way to to use for coming back, and this was the reason because we terminated our collaboration last year. After one year, now we are again together, because Shaheen is now fit, and his problem is only more to train.

Renato:

You mentioned once a special block for Shaheen with 4 x 1600 in the morning all faster than 4 minutes, then 2 sets of 5 x 300 in the afternoon, all faster than 39.

You have also said that Shaheen is very good at suffering in training. How does this relate to what you said about the importance of athletes enjoying training?