El Guerrouj VS. Brazier in a 1200

Thankyou!

I'll throw in another workout I heard about from the athlete I mentioned in a previous post - 5 x 1000m in 2.20 (off full rest) in a locked stadium. He had a crew of pacemakers that would rotate in and out of dragging him through 800m in 1.52.

The 800m men is called the "undopable event" for a reason. If El Guerrouj used EPO, as Coevett indicated, it would have helped him tremendously in stamina/endurance, but not much in 800m speed. There is a reason 1500, 3000 and 5000 world records, the distances with highest correlation to VO2MAX, red blood cell counts, and ability of the heart to bump blood, are not being broken anymore. The 800 is way more dynamic.

There is a reason El Guerrouj ran such fast times each race - he was afraid of being outsprinted by the faster guys (like successfully Ngeny did at Olympics), and his strategy was to run the kick out of others, by kicking 600-800m out.

He avoided the 800 because it would have made him incredibly suspicious, if a 3:26 guy can only run 1:44/45 or slower. People would have noticed that something is wrong there. The 800m these days are dominated by guys with fast 400m speed, whereas the 1500 is more about aerobic power. Lewandowski only had 47s speed, and never got top 3 in big 800m races. After switching to the 1500, he suddenly starts medaling in the toughest fields (e.g. Doha last year).

Even Kiprop, who had way more speed than El Guerrouj, didn't race many 800m races. Same story - he was on EPO, which helps him a lot more in the 1500, and he was afraid of the even speedier guys like Kszcot or Rudisha in the 800 that would smoke him every time.

It's not only that someone does not want to lose fequently if one dominates a similar event. It's also that if one does not race the 800m frequently one will almost never have great performances. Because it is such a hard event with severe punishment for wrong pacing or an unwise (like too early) move it requires lots of racing for fine tuning and experience. (I think I read that at worlds level statistically in the 800m a defending champion or medalist has a greater chance not to reach a final in the subsequent championship than in ANY other athletics event!) It can also get somewhat physically rough for a slight guy like El G.

Jo72 wrote:

It's not only that someone does not want to lose fequently if one dominates a similar event. It's also that if one does not race the 800m frequently one will almost never have great performances. Because it is such a hard event with severe punishment for wrong pacing or an unwise (like too early) move it requires lots of racing for fine tuning and experience. (I think I read that at worlds level statistically in the 800m a defending champion or medalist has a greater chance not to reach a final in the subsequent championship than in ANY other athletics event!) It can also get somewhat physically rough for a slight guy like El G.

Great post. This is from Rio 2016 -

Now imagine our 5'9", 128 lbs, 18.9 BMI guy El Guerrouj thrown in there. Even if he somehow would be able to run a strong pace with his skinny body, the others would tear him apart physically. Anyone who ever raced an 800 on the track knows how rough it can get.

Also, the strength training these guys and El Guerrouj did are two different worlds. El Guerrouj never lifted heavy, he just did bodyweight and ultra light weight at many, many reps (just further improving endurance). That's how people who don't have many fast-twitch fibers lift because anything else gets their weak bodies injured. The 800m guys all got better 400, better 800, and WAY more FT fibers and power. El Guerrouj was not a 1:42/1:43 guy.

I think El G would narrowly beat Coe over 1200, and Coe would win over 1000m.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Coevett wrote:

El G was not 4 seconds faster than Cram or Coe. Do you really think if Cram and Coe each had a drug induced athletic prime lasting 7 years and made 8 or 9 attempts at the 1500m WR every season with multiple pacemakers, themselves sometimes confirmed dopers, that they would have finished their careers with 3:29 pbs?

Quite likely. 3:29 was their upper limit, they had pacemakers too don't be kidding yourself thinking that El Guerrouj invented pacemakers.

I think you've got it the wrong way around there. We can safely say that El G got to or very close to his upper limit, because he had 30 attempts at his fastest 1500m while in his prime, and he got within a second of his final pb four (other) times.

If Coe hadn't ran his 3:29 in 86, when he was slightly past his best, then his pb would have been 3:31.95.

Of course, most objective observers would know that Coe could have ran much faster, citing evidence such as his 3:31.95 in Stockhom in 81 after Robinson had led him round the first lap in a suicidal 51 seconds, or his 3:32 in the LA final, after five hard races in a week.

But you'd still get people like zzzxxxccc saying that 'Coe was 6 seconds slower than El G, he could never have beaten him over 1,000m!!'.

There's no reason to believe that 3:29 was the upper limit of Coe or Cram. They just didn't race it often enough when they were healthy, and they weren't healthy for very long.

El G didn't invent the idea of pacemakers, but the pacing that he enjoyed compared to Coe is beyond comparison.

Do you really think Robinson taking Coe through in 51 seconds and then leaving him to run most of the rest of the race solo compares to what El G had???

The only time Coe had the type of quality of pacing that El G enjoyed was when Konchellah paced him for his 800m in 81 and he ran a WR that stood for 16 years.

I wonder what Coe could have ran in 1981 if instead of Robinson taking a backhander from Andy Norman to sabotage the WR attempt, he'd had Konchellah and Cram to pace him over 1500m? And 3 or 4 attempts at it in that season instead of smashing other WRs and having to compete in meaningless international competitions in Britain? Not to mention, surely Rome in 1998 was a bit faster than the Stockholm track of 81.

3:28.0, and sub 3:24 with EPO.

Deano, first of all - none of this is personal. It's good discussion.

I do think we have moved away slightly from the original (and interesting) proposition here of El G vs Brazier in the 1200m and moved into a "was El G really so much better than Cram and the Brits" argument.

Obviously you are from the UK and I get it. Hey my favorite runner ever is Steve Ovett so I feel you.

There is no doubt in my mind that El Guerrojou was heavily involved in the late 90's early 00's free-for-all when it came to drugs - namely EPO (or variants), HGH, testosterone etc. I mean it's simply implausible he dominated that era full of cats dabbling in the same stuff (and I will include Noah, Komen, Lagat, all of Spain, the rest of North Africa and leave off Kenya in large because clearly they only cottoned on mid 00's before implementing the ramshackle pharmaceutical huts they now have as a form of crude catching up).

However if anything Hichem's aerobic power that enabled 7.23 and 12.50 + an Olympic title over the 12.5 laps was significantly boosted by the above.

Back to the speed topic - all of this is kind of irrelevant and confusing the way you are presenting this. So you are okay with El G having run 48 seconds in training which is training and quite conceivably not an all-out effort (like we have no idea of this), and you even say a 48 flat second rolling 400m is completely plausible then counter this with Crammy's fastest ever 400 meters being a 47.6 second relay split? So at best what half a second faster?

Sure I'll give you that - no problem. After all Cram was what 6'1 and Hichem was about 15cm shorter at 5'9. That's not surprising. But if we take Crams 1.42 high as a reference point don't you think Hichem's clearly superior aerobic power could make up a half second difference in pure leg speed over 400m when it came to the 800m?! Dude, come on - you are insulting your own intelligence there!

I'm looking at your other points here,

"Wouldn't he have wanted to run an 800m to cement his legacy as the greatest MD runner ever" Uh, why? I think his legacy and portfolio as a great middle distance runner (and his opinion of MD might be different to yours or mine) is fairly powerful as world record holder in the 1500, mile, 2000m, the second fastest ever over 3000m and double Olympic Champion over 1500-5000m. I mean mate - you are clutching at straws again on this one. End of the day it comes down to if he ever cared about the 2 laps and you don't know this and neither do I. Given he never bothered to race one I think we can assertain his position on it. It doesn't detract in ANY way from his legacy.

"The only person he should have feared was Kipketer". Wow that's pretty disrespectful of a lot of very good athletes and also it shows a little lack of knowledge of the differences in elite 800m and miling which to be honest, shocks me from you as you clearly know a lot. In this era 800m running was really deep. Kipketer was loading up 49.0 second first laps which guys were very eager to take on with him - I doubt this suited a guy like Hichem. Furthermore if (which I still believe to be true) he ran under 1.43 in a paced TT how would this translate to a race like Brussels 1999 when 4 guys ran under 1.43 and Said-Guerni and Chirchir ran 1.43.3 with 49.3 seconds in the first quarter.

End of the day it comes back to the point above - did he ever care about running it competitively? If the answer is no then none of it matters!

Final one "He had no problems chasing the 2000m record". Honestly one isn't really more prestigious than the other and sure, he was better suited to the 2000m - no kidding. How do we know this wasn't part of a plan to get the 3000m record from Komen? (because he sure came close) . As an off distance the 1000m is more associated with the 800m and the 2000m more associated with the 1500/mile. So what? Applying your logic it's like saying Michael Johnson never ran the 100m because he knew he didn't have the speed required to break the WR - I mean maybe? And? For the record I think 48 second speed combined with 7.23/12.50 speed endurance is more than capable of running under 2.12. Why didn't he? Maybe he just didn't care! Maybe there wasn't a race that fitting into his limited but elite racing schedule. Your disregard for that entirely possible notion is simply astounding. Your expectation of Hichem was that he finished his career as WR holder in the 1km, 1500m, mile, 2000m, second fastest ever in the 3000m and a 12.50 5000m? Dude, stop it.

I think you are a smart guy and know a lot but some of your ideas and logic here is letting you down bro - I am still not sure what you want me to concede - that Cram was faster over 400m or it is completely implausible Hichem could run under 1.43? Kind of a stupid argument isn't it?

Despite some internet sites stating so, EL G was not 5’9” when at peak of his career. You can see this just by looking at pics/video footage of him alongside other athletes. He was more like 6’0”

I am 6'1 (and a few cm)

I have stood next to Hichem quite a few times. He's not 6'0 (1.83m) tall, brother - I can promise you.

Not that this is relevant in less you are using it as an argument that he was unequivocally slower than Steve Cram (smh)

Salvatore Stitchmo wrote:

I am 6'1 (and a few cm)

I have stood next to Hichem quite a few times. He's not 6'0 (1.83m) tall, brother - I can promise you.

Not that this is relevant in less you are using it as an argument that he was unequivocally slower than Steve Cram (smh)

How were you able to meet him in RL? Were you an Olympian? Or working on track meets somehow?

Salvatore Stitchmo wrote:

I am 6'1 (and a few cm)

I have stood next to Hichem quite a few times. He's not 6'0 (1.83m) tall, brother - I can promise you.

Not that this is relevant in less you are using it as an argument that he was unequivocally slower than Steve Cram (smh)

It is obvious to anyone who followed the sport in his competitive days that he was significantly taller than 5'9" (1.76m), unless all other runners lied about their heights.

Coe was 1.76m, so was Aouita and Morceli about the same. EL G was at least 2 inches (5cm) taller than them.

See link below. I know about perspective, but even though he is slightly forward of the rest, he is certainly considerabley taller than Morceli.

And here is a link to a photo of EL G with Roger Banister, who was 1.87m/ 6'2"

Unless Banister shrunk by 5 inches, then it's clear EL G was much taller than 1.76m!

Another photo of him alongside Alan Webb, who is 1.75m, same as Morceli.

EL G is clearly nearer to 6 foot than 5'9".

I wasn't refering to you about being personal, but thanks for your response.

I think it is important for you to realise a couple of things that underpin my arguments.

Firstly, I don't believe that Cram's and Coe's 1500/mile pbs reflected their ability and that they certainly didn't get as close to their full potential (in terms of times) as EL G did. This was for a number of reasons, including poor pacing compared to EL G (who had his own group of pacers that trained with him) and the sheer number of opportunities they had.

I think EL G was pretty maxed out at 3:26.0/3:43.0, where he was taken pretty much 3/4 of the distance by pacers.

I believe Coe & Cram were capable of 3:27 high/3:28 and 3:44 high/3:45.0 for the 1500 and 1 mile.

So in essence, EL G was c. 2 secs better, not 3 + secs.

Secondly, I (like you) believe EL G was on a full programme of EPO, HGH, etc. This fact alone would skew the relative significance/effect of aerobic capabilities as the distance got greater. In other words, a 0.5 secs gap over 400m could still be a 0.5secs gap over 800m. It is not until the aerobic percentage gets to a certain point (and I have no idea where this is), that the gap starts to creep up.

Going back to EL G's 400 capabilities, it is important to stipulate whether we are talking about 400m with a rolling start (or a relay split) and an open 400m. Stating EL G was capable of 48secs is rather vague. It could be 48.0 from a standing start, or it could also mean a ht 48.9 with a rolling start, which would be more like 49.6 for an open 400m. Now, EL G's coach stated (and here I'm presuming the poster from the 2005 thread really did hear the coach and EL G say this) that he had run 48 and 1:44 high 'in training'. I said that I would believe this (48.0) for a rolling 400m, as it would indicate more like 48.7 (48 high) for an open 400m (from a standing start). I then compared this to Cram, who had run a 47.6 relay leg (worth 48.3 for an open 400m) at the end of 84 (not his best season), and also a 48.1 for a tt in training in the summer of 85. A tt for me indicates from a standing start.

Now, obviously both could run faster in a competitive environment. I see Cram as a 47 high 400m (open) runner in 85 and 86. I see EL G as more of a 48.5 runner, based on the vague comments of himself and his coach in 2005. In other words, I see Cram as being more than 0.5secs faster than EL G, and more like 0.7 secs faster

As stated in previous posts, the height difference between Cram and EL G was no more than a couple of inches. 1.76m may well have been EL G's height at the beginning of his athletics career (at 18), but he was certainly much closer to 6 feet by his peak years. Perhaps the HGH had something to do with not wanting to update his change in height!?

I believe Cram (with perfect pacing/ drafting to 400m, etc) was capable of 1:42 mid in 85/86; as a point of reference, Coe was probably a 46.0/1:41 low athlete in 81. So, attributing EL G with a 1:43 low (which is what his coach believed him to be capable of) is only maintaining the c. 0.7 secs differnce I believe them to have over 400m. I don't think it is any less than this because the effect of EPO hasn't had much impact yet.

Pure middle distance is 800m up to 1 mile. EL G has a very good claim to being the greatest 1500-5000m runner, but not the greatest 'middle distance runner' as it is defined; the 5000m is long distance.

Now, if EL G were capable of 48.0 for an open 400m and ran a 1:42.7 tt in training, as you believe, then he should have been capable of threatening the WR for 1000m and running a 1:42 low 800m in a paced race scenario. Now, in the late 90's up to 2000, no one else other than Kipketer ran faster than 1:42.5. Based on the belief that the 1:42.7 tt and his 48 400 were real. then EL G shouldn't have had to worry about anyone else in a paced circuit run, because 1:42.5 should have been within his compass.

In addition, the 2 laps is an Olympic event and far more important than 2000m or 3000m. EL G didn't need to contest an 800m at championship level, but running a 1:42 in a paced circuit event would indicate just how great his range was and would include him in the converstaion of all time Goat for middle distance. As it is, with nothing over 800 or 1000m, he isn't even in the discussion for middle distance GOAT.

?? See previous paragraph of mine. I know about the 800m scene in this era very well, thank you. Bottom line is, if EL G could run a 1:42.7 for a tt he had little to worry about in a paced race against the other 800 elites, the fastest of whom was Rodahl in 1:42,5. Surely EL G could find a race without the likes of Kipketer and Rodahl running in it!? He had many years in which he could have run a single 800 or 1000m and shown what he was capable of. Please note that Lagat ran in several 800s in fast circuit races and never managed to break 1:46!! ? What can we deduce from that re EPO?

Firstly, I agree that someone with concurrent 48.0 (OPEN) 400 speed and 7:23 endurance would certainly have threatened 2:12 for 1000m. But I don't believe he did have 48.0 open speed; more like 48.5 - 48 high. If he did have 48.0 speed then why on earth didn't he have a go at the 1000m WR. The idea that someone like EL G (as with Aouita, Morceli, Cram, Coe, etc) would't 'care' or be bothered to at least have a go at a record they were capable of beating, is unrealistic IMO. Having held yet another WR would only put EL G further ahead in cementing his greatness. Had he broken the 1k WR and posted a 1:42 time over 800m, it would put forward a pretty winning case for making him the greatest 'middle distance runner' of all time and the greatest 1500/5000m athlete of all time too. The fact he made no effort whatsoever to run a decent 800 or 1000m only reinforces IMO, that he knew he wasn't capable of running that fast at either distance. Morceli managed 1:44.7 and 2:13 high. Hi s 1000m was a concerted record attempt, so the better performance. I don't see EL G being much faster than that; possibly 1:43 mid/ 2:13 mid.

You can't be serious with this?

All your photos are warped by perspective and other factors (like even what footwear someone may or may not be wearing). Like I can't even be bothered.

And the funniest thing is, you've basically given up trying to argue to Steve Cram (not even sure why you bought him into a D Brazier vs El G 1200m hypothetical TT debate) was better than Hichem, to he was considerably faster than him, and now this is the thing you want to argue about - his f$$%%g height?!

God you British people are miserable - I actually have a lot of sympathy for you brother!

Done with this, I've proven my point. Stay safe mate.

To be fair, EL Guerrouj does appear to be quite a bit taller than 1.76m.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympic_games/8935973.stm

Both Grice and Kip are listed as 1.82m. So unless Guerrouj has heels on, he's about their height, which is close to 6'.

"The one race that required El Guerrouj to front run a significant portion (Sydney 2000, El G had to start leading after just 900m), is the one he lost to Ngeny on the home straight despite having superior fitness and being the better 1500 guy"

Wrong

Athens 2004 start leading after 700m

Rapidoo wrote:

"The one race that required El Guerrouj to front run a significant portion (Sydney 2000, El G had to start leading after just 900m), is the one he lost to Ngeny on the home straight despite having superior fitness and being the better 1500 guy"

Wrong

Athens 2004 start leading after 700m

True, but there was no runner comparable to Ngeny in that race. Lagat never broke 1:46 in the 800m, despite having great races with pacers for it. Ngeny would have won Athens 2004 as well had he not had the car crash ruining his entire career.

Ngeny had more raw speed, 400m speed, 800m speed, and 1k speed than both Lagat and El Guerrouj. El Guerrouj was not slow - in fact, in 5000m HE was the one feared for his short kick because he was competing against even slower guys (speed wise) like Geb and Bekele. But comparing El Guerrouj to 800m runners or 800/1500 guys and thinking he could run 1:42 or 1:43 is nonsense. Fact is, he never ran faster than 1:47 in an official competition.

The only thing people have as proof is what his coach said. Evidence? His coach saying he ran 1:42 in practice? The same coach probably feeding him gallons of EPO and HGH and the same coach trying to make it less obvious (that a guy who only ran 1:47 for 800m could yet run a 3:43 mile and a 3:26 flat 1500m). I would highly question the credibility of his coach saying anything regarding his 800m times. Again - the 800m male is called the undopable event.