El Guerrouj VS. Brazier in a 1200

I believe El G wins but not by a large margin, as he doesn’t have the speed Brazier does. I assume that Brazier and El G are both around the same capability in the 1k. I think they could both run 2:15 or so, considering Brazier runs 1:42 and also closed a indoor 1:44 race in 24.xx. On the other hand, El G doesn’t have the 800 speed Brazier does, probably maxes out around 1:44.xx. Over 1200 meters, I think El G wins by about 2ish seconds.

El Guerrouj’s k time is not a good representation considering he ran the last k of his 1500 record faster than it. El G would dust brazier in a 1200, we would see him take off on the 800 specialist who would be struggling to move up on distance only being on about 40 miles a week. Let’s not forget who we are talking about here

bump,

With 2019 drug testing or 2004 drug testing... ?

I would vote for El G in a 1k.

the goat smokes him wrote:

El Guerrouj’s k time is not a good representation considering he ran the last k of his 1500 record faster than it. El G would dust brazier in a 1200, we would see him take off on the 800 specialist who would be struggling to move up on distance only being on about 40 miles a week. Let’s not forget who we are talking about here

100% correct. El G beating him by two seconds would be devastating. I don't think the margin would be that large but it's not going to be close.

I would love to see the two of them race in everything from the 200 meters on up to 3000. I mean why not?

To run 3:26 you absolutely have to have wheels to begin with. I would contest that if they battled in the 800 meters for one whole track season, say 8 races, El G would win at least once. His absolute potential is probably within 1 second either way of Brazier. If he cut his mileage down and put on 5 pounds of muscle he could do some damage in the 800 for sure.

If they both trained for the 1200 specifically and raced it for a season, again 8 races, I say Brazier beats El G at least once.

In the 200 and 400 if they both trained for it for a season I'm assuming Brazier has the upper hand, but would love to have seen what El G could run for those distances with 9-12 months of focusing on it.

1500-3000 El G just has a better body so would have to be sick to lose to Brazier, but again it would be interesting to see nonetheless. I wonder how Brazier would handle the 3000SC.

Why don't the people who make NBA2K make a track edition so we could race everyone in history against one another over any distance and make characters representing ourselves and see how we stack up to the legends. That's where the big money is.

Korea Ah Ah wrote:

With 2019 drug testing or 2004 drug testing... ?

NOP vs Morrocan full throttle 'special methods'.

No contest.

So much misinformation here about El Guerrouj. El Guerrouj was a STRENGTH runner, he did NOT have great 200m or 400m speed. He was a classic 1500/5000 guy, NOT a 800/1500 guy like Brazier or Lewandowski.

Closing races with long kicks close to the maximum ability (El G was famous for 400-600m finishes very fast) is more of a sign of extreme aerobic ability than of a super fast 400m time.

https://youtu.be/X3wOQkXsRHs?t=229

This was a slower 1500m race (back then, ~3:32) and El Guerrouj was the favorite and went as leader into the home stretch. If he had the speed, the race - and it was an Olympic final, extremely important - would have been his.

BUT he didn't have the wheels to compete with a true 1000/1500 specialist (1000 PR 2:11) with blazing speed (Ngeny) and got destroyed. Brazier would do the exact same thing to him.

We understand that he would go for long kicks in tactical races, but we are talking about him ripping a 1200 from the start. You seemed to fail to forget that we are still comparing a 3:37 guy to a 3:26 guy. El Guerrouj’s 1500 record pace is already faster than Brazier could run in a 1200, so move El G down to the 1200 and he blows brazier away.

the goat smokes him wrote:

We understand that he would go for long kicks in tactical races, but we are talking about him ripping a 1200 from the start. You seemed to fail to forget that we are still comparing a 3:37 guy to a 3:26 guy. El Guerrouj’s 1500 record pace is already faster than Brazier could run in a 1200, so move El G down to the 1200 and he blows brazier away.

Solid points, but El Guerrouj wasn't able to run the WR without having incredible pacers. Same for Komen. We give the guys getting the WR all the credit and forget the people setting the pace, frontrunning very hard and allowing them to hit it.

In a 1200 between Brazier and El Guerrouj, Brazier would just sit behind El Guerrouj. No one else to make tempo for them. Then, once they get to the home straight, Brazier will fly away next to El Guerrouj just like Ngeny did in the Olympic final.

El Guerrouj never led races from the get-go, he wasn't letting them come down to a sprint finish but he would always wait for the last 300-600m before taking the lead.

There is a chance that Brazier is not able to hang with El Guerrouj, or even if he somehow magically does, he won't have any kick left since he needed to invest all his energy just to stay on pace with El Guerrouj. But El Guerrouj would need to have a perfect day, and be able to frontrun it from start to finish at a very quick pace, or Brazier will show him who the boss is. There is a reason El Guerrouj avoided 800m and 1000m races like the plague, he felt much more comfortable in 3k and might have even been able to threaten Komen's WR had he had better opportunities and pacers for the 3k.

If they (peak EL G and Brazier) had a pacer with specific instructions to run at fast tempo, e.g. 53.5, 1:48, El G would win comfortably in around 2:42/2:43. Caveat- El G was almost certainly doping. Had there been no pacer and just the two of them in the race, it depends how fast EL G goes off. If the 800 mark is any slower than 1:52/1:53, it would be 50/50 who would win a 1200m. The track surface (certainly they have improved marginally in last 20 years) and spikes (would El G be wearing those in use in late 90's and Brazier the latest carbon plated Nike prototypes?) they would be competing on/with would also come into play.

I think EL G was probably capable of 1:43 high for 800m and 2:13 high for 1000m. At this stage of his career I think Brazier could go 2:13 high/2:14 flat for 1k.

Anything below 1000m, Brazier wins, and anything above 1200m, El G wins. So between 1k and 1200m they would be competitive, and neither one would dominate in a series of races IMO.

I think a peak Coe and Cram would beat both over 1000m and certainly Brazier over 1200m. Against EL G I would expect both Coe and Cram to beat him more often than not, especially if there were no pacers involved.

El G ran one 800 (Jun 95), per the IAAF website, in 1:47 when he was 19. At the time his 1500 PR was 3:33.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

This was a slower 1500m race (back then, ~3:32) and El Guerrouj was the favorite and went as leader into the home stretch. If he had the speed, the race - and it was an Olympic final, extremely important - would have been his.

BUT he didn't have the wheels to compete with a true 1000/1500 specialist (1000 PR 2:11) with blazing speed (Ngeny) and got destroyed. Brazier would do the exact same thing to him.

Wait, did you just say El G couldn’t hang with a 1500 m specialist. You do know that he has run a 1500 m faster than anyone ever, right?

Fragemeister wrote:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

This was a slower 1500m race (back then, ~3:32) and El Guerrouj was the favorite and went as leader into the home stretch. If he had the speed, the race - and it was an Olympic final, extremely important - would have been his.

BUT he didn't have the wheels to compete with a true 1000/1500 specialist (1000 PR 2:11) with blazing speed (Ngeny) and got destroyed. Brazier would do the exact same thing to him.

Wait, did you just say El G couldn’t hang with a 1500 m specialist. You do know that he has run a 1500 m faster than anyone ever, right?

Look at the video I posted above. Despite being the fastest guy ever in the mile AND 1500, and winning pretty much all races for these events, he got beat by Ngeny in Olympic finals Sydney. It was a slow race, his team mates did not help him much by for example setting a strong pace for the pace early, and El Guerrouj himself had to start taking the lead pretty early. He was not able to run away, and on the home straight, Ngeny smoked him.

It is NOT always the fittest person who wins championship races (and a 1on1 competition between Brazier and El Guerrouj would be like one). Doha last year could have been a surprise winner, like Lewandowski if Cheruiyot had chilled in the pack and if it had been a 3:35 race, but Cheruiyot front ran from the start to make sure no one is playing any games or causing an unnecessary upset.

So bad tactics that played into someone else winning that day. Agreed and, if they went at a super slow 8 min pace until the last 200m, then Bolt would win.

No one wins them all. Is Bekele not the greatest 5K runner because he’s lost to Kipchoge and El G? But El G has the record at multiple distances so he‘s no fluke and in his prime I would take him over anyone at that distance. But to say he can‘t compete with a 1500 m specialist at an event he ran better than anyone is history is just playing the silly contrarian.

Ngeny ran a 3:43.40 mile.

El G ran a 3:43.13 mile.

Brazier's best converts to about a 3:54 mile.

I definitely think if El G had pacers he could run sub 2:40, the man ran 3:43 for the full mile. But if he had to solo it with Brazier behind him, I don't see anything faster than 2:42 with Brazier not too far behind. I like the point about Coe and Cram, although Coe was slower over 1500 he had some serious 800 wheels. I think the dual between him and El G would be great.

Math + Experience wrote:

Ngeny ran a 3:43.40 mile.

El G ran a 3:43.13 mile.

Brazier's best converts to about a 3:54 mile.

Brazier is not trained for the mile at all. He is doing 40-45 mpw or something. That's not enough to reach someone's ultimate potential in the mile, even if he is as talented as Brazier.

You would have to take Brazier's 3:54 mile and extrapolate it depending on what you believe he could achieve with higher mileage, and dropping a few lbs possibly.

Also takes experience racing the mile. Took Lewandowski a few years to break through the 3:34/3:35 barrier and suddenly run a ~3:30 out of nowhere.

In the 1200m race, the low mileage of Brazier wouldn't hold him nearly back as much as in the Mile. These last 400m make all the difference in the world if you compare a 100 mpw guy like El Guerrouj to a 45 mpw guy like Brazier.