Nico Young Tempo workout

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

lololololol wrote:

But that's exactly how Tinman defined his tempo pace - by pace %. Have you read Jack Daniel's book? It was considered to be the standard for science in training.

Daniels defined tempos at 20 min at 1 hour-pace - saying that anything slower is "no-man's land" and there are no benefits running the paces between easy pace AND tempo pace. He said MP runs are okay, but only help to mentally prepare for the marathon - but physiologically, they don't offer more than easy runs because they are not fast enough.

Most people believed that and trained religiously after Daniels. However, science later found out that our bodies don't work the way Daniel's defined it. There ARE benefits at paces between easy and threshold, and they are not just mental but also physiological.

Yes, Canova, Lydiard, lots of other coaches have used paces between threshold and easy for AGES. But a lot of their training programs are rather secretive, whereas Tinman always wanted to help the running community. Here is his post about introducing the term "Tinman Tempo":

"Tinman Tempo Running – A training pace that optimally develops aerobic endurance. It lies at the high end of moderate (effort). I’ve defined it as the pace that typically lies between 80 and 83% of your maximum aerobic pace. This means running at a pace you can hold in an all-out 2.5-3.5 hour race if you are well conditioned. If you have not been running much distance, then such a time frame has little meaning to you. No worries just use Tinman’s rule of thumb for determining tempo pace – add 1 minute per mile to your 3k-pace! To play it safe, add 1 minute per mile to your 5k race-pace.

For several years the running community used Dr. Jack T. Daniels’ “tempo” pace which was

approximately equal to 1-hour race pace. In 2002-2004, I made it known on letsrun.com, a famous running website, that tempos could be run at other paces, and I clearly defined a way to find the other paces.

With no intention to discredit Jack’s method, I offered information about 3 different tempo-running paces I used in my own running and coaching since the 1980s: long, medium, and short tempos.

Further, I shared my method of finding those paces: divide 5k-pace by .87, .90, or .93. Long tempos, I said, could be run 60-80 minutes, medium 40-60 minutes and short 20-40 minutes, depending upon one’s ability and training level.

Right away, many people discussed the idea of having various length and speed tempos. Many

successful runners shared the fact that they had, during their own careers, often run at a moderate to somewhat strong paces for several miles. Indeed, if one looked back to the late-great runners who set records from decades gone by, one could find several examples of runners who were running in socalled “no-man’s” land and reaping benefits, none-the-less. They ran at or close to marathon pace or slightly slower because it produced results – and they didn’t even have a fancy term for it like “tempo run.”"

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

lololololol wrote:

But that's exactly how Tinman defined his tempo pace - by pace %. Have you read Jack Daniel's book? It was considered to be the standard for science in training.

Daniels defined tempos at 20 min at 1 hour-pace - saying that anything slower is "no-man's land" and there are no benefits running the paces between easy pace AND tempo pace. He said MP runs are okay, but only help to mentally prepare for the marathon - but physiologically, they don't offer more than easy runs because they are not fast enough.

Most people believed that and trained religiously after Daniels. However, science later found out that our bodies don't work the way Daniel's defined it. There ARE benefits at paces between easy and threshold, and they are not just mental but also physiological.

Yes, Canova, Lydiard, lots of other coaches have used paces between threshold and easy for AGES. But a lot of their training programs are rather secretive, whereas Tinman always wanted to help the running community. Here is his post about introducing the term "Tinman Tempo":

"Tinman Tempo Running – A training pace that optimally develops aerobic endurance. It lies at the high end of moderate (effort). I’ve defined it as the pace that typically lies between 80 and 83% of your maximum aerobic pace. This means running at a pace you can hold in an all-out 2.5-3.5 hour race if you are well conditioned. If you have not been running much distance, then such a time frame has little meaning to you. No worries just use Tinman’s rule of thumb for determining tempo pace – add 1 minute per mile to your 3k-pace! To play it safe, add 1 minute per mile to your 5k race-pace.

For several years the running community used Dr. Jack T. Daniels’ “tempo” pace which was

approximately equal to 1-hour race pace. In 2002-2004, I made it known on letsrun.com, a famous running website, that tempos could be run at other paces, and I clearly defined a way to find the other paces.

With no intention to discredit Jack’s method, I offered information about 3 different tempo-running paces I used in my own running and coaching since the 1980s: long, medium, and short tempos.

Further, I shared my method of finding those paces: divide 5k-pace by .87, .90, or .93. Long tempos, I said, could be run 60-80 minutes, medium 40-60 minutes and short 20-40 minutes, depending upon one’s ability and training level.

Right away, many people discussed the idea of having various length and speed tempos. Many

successful runners shared the fact that they had, during their own careers, often run at a moderate to somewhat strong paces for several miles. Indeed, if one looked back to the late-great runners who set records from decades gone by, one could find several examples of runners who were running in socalled “no-man’s” land and reaping benefits, none-the-less. They ran at or close to marathon pace or slightly slower because it produced results – and they didn’t even have a fancy term for it like “tempo run.”"

The Overexplainer wrote:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

But that's exactly how Tinman defined his tempo pace - by pace %. Have you read Jack Daniel's book? It was considered to be the standard for science in training.

Daniels defined tempos at 20 min at 1 hour-pace - saying that anything slower is "no-man's land" and there are no benefits running the paces between easy pace AND tempo pace. He said MP runs are okay, but only help to mentally prepare for the marathon - but physiologically, they don't offer more than easy runs because they are not fast enough.

Most people believed that and trained religiously after Daniels. However, science later found out that our bodies don't work the way Daniel's defined it. There ARE benefits at paces between easy and threshold, and they are not just mental but also physiological.

Yes, Canova, Lydiard, lots of other coaches have used paces between threshold and easy for AGES. But a lot of their training programs are rather secretive, whereas Tinman always wanted to help the running community. Here is his post about introducing the term "Tinman Tempo":

"Tinman Tempo Running – A training pace that optimally develops aerobic endurance. It lies at the high end of moderate (effort). I’ve defined it as the pace that typically lies between 80 and 83% of your maximum aerobic pace. This means running at a pace you can hold in an all-out 2.5-3.5 hour race if you are well conditioned. If you have not been running much distance, then such a time frame has little meaning to you. No worries just use Tinman’s rule of thumb for determining tempo pace – add 1 minute per mile to your 3k-pace! To play it safe, add 1 minute per mile to your 5k race-pace.

For several years the running community used Dr. Jack T. Daniels’ “tempo” pace which was

approximately equal to 1-hour race pace. In 2002-2004, I made it known on letsrun.com, a famous running website, that tempos could be run at other paces, and I clearly defined a way to find the other paces.

With no intention to discredit Jack’s method, I offered information about 3 different tempo-running paces I used in my own running and coaching since the 1980s: long, medium, and short tempos.

Further, I shared my method of finding those paces: divide 5k-pace by .87, .90, or .93. Long tempos, I said, could be run 60-80 minutes, medium 40-60 minutes and short 20-40 minutes, depending upon one’s ability and training level.

Right away, many people discussed the idea of having various length and speed tempos. Many

successful runners shared the fact that they had, during their own careers, often run at a moderate to somewhat strong paces for several miles. Indeed, if one looked back to the late-great runners who set records from decades gone by, one could find several examples of runners who were running in socalled “no-man’s” land and reaping benefits, none-the-less. They ran at or close to marathon pace or slightly slower because it produced results – and they didn’t even have a fancy term for it like “tempo run.”"

All this arguing about what this four mile run was or wasn't, and yet you haven't even done the math on your own post.

I assume what you have put above is from Tinman himself. If we follow his guidelines, outlined above, assuming that Young is a 13:40 runner, you come up with this:

13:40 = 4:22.4 for 1600m,. 4:24.0 for the mile

Long 60-80 minutes = 4:24 / .87 = 5:03

Medium 40-60 minutes = 4:24 / .90 = 4:53

Short 20-40 minutes = 4:24 / .93 = 4:43

So, I agree with these Tinman prescribed paces for a 1340 5K runner (and realize he did not invent these paces), but this 19:59 16-lapper was not subscribing to them.

Realize also, that if you credit Young with being able to run 13:30 or 14 flat, the paces change very little.

So, this was specifically NOT a Tinman tempo. It was a short tempo at 1 hour race pace for this runner.

He is the best in the nation right now, and I know that his coach is very committed and has coached quite a few good runners in 4 years. But I don't see much point to this kind of tempo, when you are currently running 4:14 pace for 3000m.

The "add 1 minute to your 3K pace or 5K pace" rule doesn't work at all, you should be able to see that by applying it to yourself.