Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 2/16/20

The Stone Cutter wrote:

You will hear several of us espouse this quite often, but as long as you ran that workout at the appropriate effort level, then you accomplished the purpose of the session, regardless of the exact pace.

Emphatically cosigned.

The body does not understand or respond to pace. The body understands and responds to effort. And the whole point of training is to get the body to respond in a desired manner.

highhoppingworm wrote:

Thank you for this post Darkwave. I was literally thinking on Monday about how 16-18 weeks just seems way too long. 6 may be pushing it for mere mortals but 10-12 seems like it could be a sweet spot. I think I remember hearing stone saying he could go longer than 12 awhile back.

What opinions do others have out there?

I'm with Darkwave. About 6 - 8 weeks for me. But I'm more or less in a perpetual base training cycle which is counter to what a lot of people do here. So basically what I would try to do (if I could stay injury free) would be to do some race specific stuff in those final weeks but otherwise change nothing.

Interesting discussion going on about training cycles.

I think I have gone with 16-week blocks, but the majority of the marathon pace work doesn't pick up until Week 8 or 9.

Yes, interesting discussion...

Right now I am gearing up mentally for an afternoon run today, which I have not done in a good while (been doing morning work). Looking to knock out at least 15 in the hills. Hoping I will get flying...

Tyler_Runs_Lifts wrote:

Interesting discussion going on about training cycles.

I think I have gone with 16-week blocks, but the majority of the marathon pace work doesn't pick up until Week 8 or 9.

And there's the whole stock you put into drilling into Marathon pace in your buildup. A lot of people here find it critical and I see 4-15 miles at MP in workouts (sometimes multiple times a week). I am a complete novice, but barely had any mileage at that pace ahead of my one in the Fall (occasionally would get near on a long run). Would expect that is unusual and possibly sub-ideal.

That being said, on other threads I've seen people argue both sides with some saying you're fine without MP and instead running threshold/HM pace workout and then MP +20-30 on long runs.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

That being said, on other threads I've seen people argue both sides with some saying you're fine without MP and instead running threshold/HM pace workout and then MP +20-30 on long runs.

That's how I trained for my marathon in 2018, lots of 5:55-6:00 workouts with a few long runs(18-20) averaging 6:35-6:45 then raced at 6:23 (goal 6:17). Not necessarily saying it was a successful race but I don't plan to do much differently over the fall training for Philly full (marathon #2). Maybe one 20 miler with the last 10 at MP.

As for the training blocks, since I don't seem to be able to keep my base mileage high enough between cycles I feel I need a longer cycle to built it and maintain for a few weeks before getting into real workouts. However I don't really have enough experience at running at a high level to have found what works best for me. My ability to hit paces in workouts seems to vary quite a bit over the cycle. ie I couldn't run much quicker than 5:55s for mile repeats a few weeks ago and I would like to get in the 5:25s range for the same workout in 6 or so weeks.

Similarly, lots of 6:00-6:10 workouts with a few long runs (18-20) averaging 7:05-7:15 then raced at 6:46 (goal ~ 6:50).

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

Tyler_Runs_Lifts wrote:

Interesting discussion going on about training cycles.

I think I have gone with 16-week blocks, but the majority of the marathon pace work doesn't pick up until Week 8 or 9.

And there's the whole stock you put into drilling into Marathon pace in your buildup. A lot of people here find it critical and I see 4-15 miles at MP in workouts (sometimes multiple times a week). I am a complete novice, but barely had any mileage at that pace ahead of my one in the Fall (occasionally would get near on a long run). Would expect that is unusual and possibly sub-ideal.

That being said, on other threads I've seen people argue both sides with some saying you're fine without MP and instead running threshold/HM pace workout and then MP +20-30 on long runs.

I never focused on MP work before I joined my current track club. It definitely makes a difference in my eyes to get a few good runs in with MP sprinkled in.

I also see folks in other places thriving using the idea of training faster than MP, so that MP comes easier during the race.

My week:

M: 7.7mi easy

T: am 5.4mi easy. pm 3.6mi w/u, 2x(4x1100m w 90s rest), 3.6mi w/d

W: off, upset stomach

T: 3.5mi w/u, 12mi tempo alternating 2mi at around 5:40 and 1mi at around 5:20 (5:33 avg overall, closed w a 5:05), 2mi down

F: off

S: 7mi easy

S: off (bad hamstring)

Super happy with thursday’s tempo, but I stepped on something during it and landed with my foot very dorsiflexed, tweaking my hamstring and shin, which is why I didn’t run on Sunday. My easy runs this Monday and Tuesday am went fine-ish, but I had a workout Tuesday pm and had to stop it at around 75% done cause the hamstring was flaring up badly. I’ve scheduled an appointment with my physio for tomorrow and hopefully it’ll be nothing serious. I’m scared I might not be able to race the big half next week.

Thanks for the insights, darkwave. Good stuff as always, and good discussion, everybody.

It’s been a good long while now, but I ran all of my marathons off a fairly short marathon-focused cycle, essentially eight weeks plus a two week taper. Some of the things that changed when I was training for a marathon were somewhat higher mileage (maybe 70s-80s as opposed to 60s-70s in good ordinary training), somewhat longer long runs (more like 2:30 as opposed to 2:00), and somewhat higher volume workouts run closer to MP (maybe 5-8 miles of work at 10k-HM pace as opposed to 3-4 miles at 5k-10k pace, mostly in the form of mile repeats). But I think the main difference was probably how hard I would be doing the long runs, with most of the harder effort coming in the form of unstructured waves where I would build and then hold the pace and then back off for a while. It was way more haphazard than what people are mostly doing here, and there are certainly things I would do differently in retrospect, but on the whole it worked decently well for me.

In general it seems like the short cycle approach requires that you be in pretty good shape to start out with, and to some degree it may be partly a matter of perspective/terminology as far as how you define the cycle. Take Canova’s approach as an example. From one perspective, he sets up a six-month marathon cycle. But from another perspective, the “specific” part of that cycle is something like eight weeks. So, very long or pretty short, depending on how you look at it.

This also gets to ThoughtsLeader’s point about how much you emphasize training at MP. I think that’s a really smart observation, and it makes me wonder to what degree the difficulty of sustaining MP-heavy training is physiological and to what degree it’s psychological.

On a couple of other topics:

GNR: Thought you made an excellent point about the importance of the longer rest in the workout we’ve been discussing. One of the things I found striking when looking at Canova’s approach to 5k/10k training is how long the rest within higher-volume race specific workouts was (like, really long). It’s interesting to consider how those kind of extended recoveries can be useful and where they might make sense.

HHH: Both the Battersea scene and the Kenya trip sound pretty awesome.

DB: Sorry to hear about the hamstring. Hope it heals quickly!

HHH which was the XC you did? Trent Park was quite muddy that day (specially since the senior men race was last), but the weather was perfect for racing. The next day, on the other hand, Ciara was making it hard to run ? I did get an easy 12 in though. How are you feeling for the big half?

HHW Good luck!

JQ You’ve been killing it in training lately! Looking forward to see how that pays off

NiceGuy good job finding the motivation to do that 21 on a treadmill. I don’t think I could.

AJ congrats on the 5k! And that’s a proper long run! Have you been doing over 26 regularly? Do you find it helps?

GT Great long run!

Darkwave Are the people at the pool generally ok with you running there? I’d like to try pool running but I’m not sure they’ll let me do it at my gym (YMCA), cause it might get in the way of the swimmers

Going Faster Miles an Hour wrote:

Curious whether the increasing rest on the 1000s was part of the design of the workout or an adjustment on the fly.

That was part of the workout structure. I knew I wanted to keep them all around 5k pace/effort and start each one other than the first one before I really got comfortable again. That meant a shorter rest up front and then a little more as the overall volume started to add up. So the reasoning was basically that more rest up front = too easy to hit 5k pace and less rest on the back end = not gonna hit 5k pace.

Comments:

HHW - Nothing to be nervous about. You've put the training in, just get out there and go for a hard long run.

JQ - Good week. Once things settle down I think you should consider dropping the rest on some of those on/off runs. If you can move down to half off, and then even down to just 1 off for the mile and 5 minute repeats I think you'll see another level of fitness.

Lanc - Heck of a week. Keep things rolling, man! I wouldn't be shocked if you're scaring sub 57 by the time Broad Street comes around. That course is quick and you've been a machine at low-mid 5:40s pace.

AJ - Very nice racing. Glad I was some motivation anyway, not that you needed it.

GT - Good solid week, especially given some illness Wednesday. Keep it rolling.

Tyler - That's a really solid week coming off a good half. Should be primed to really take advantage of the fitness gains from your race now.

Npurdy - Good stuff. Can't imagine coming back off an injury like that.

GNR - Really solid week, whether the GPS was off or not. Just out of curiosity, how close to tempo pace does your overall average end up on those 400s. A 200 jog is pretty short and usually when I've run a workout like that it feels more like strength than speed by the end, but it does depend how quickly you take that 200.

DB - That's a really solid 12 mile tempo. Hopefully it's nothing serious because you're super fit.

Boots on the ground at the Gasparilla Distance classic. Here is to hoping it’s hobby jogger paradise.

16,000 at Monday's Great Aloha Run 8.15 miler.

Andy Wacker from Boulder was a three-peat winner.

And Kenya's Iveen Chepkemoi destroyed the field, winning by almost 4 minutes over Canadian Olympian Lanni Marchant, averaging 5:11 per mile.

DietBacon wrote:

Darkwave Are the people at the pool generally ok with you running there? I’d like to try pool running but I’m not sure they’ll let me do it at my gym (YMCA), cause it might get in the way of the swimmers

So.....it really depends on the pool.

In my area, some of the pools reserve a lane specifically for non-swimmers - if so, we use that. In other pools, we use the diving well (which is rarely used by divers).

If no diving well, and no reserved lane, we'll usually snag an empty swimming lane if there is one (preferably the slow lane). And if there's only one swimmer in a lane, it can be shared with a pool-runner. Of course, if there's already two swimmers in a lane, the pool-runner is out of luck - you can't really circle-swim with a pool-runner.

I would just show up at the pool - if there's not a clearly marked area for aquatic exercise/water-walking/pool-running/etc, then ask the lifeguard where you should go. I'm sure you're not the first to show up and pool-run.

Be prepared to make friends with the aqua aerobics crowd, though (actually a lot of nice people in that crew).

DietBacon wrote:

AJ congrats on the 5k! And that’s a proper long run! Have you been doing over 26 regularly? Do you find it helps?

Never been over 26.2 before. Longest training run before Sunday was 25. I hadn’t planned on going so far, but there was a last-minute need for a 3:15 pacer so I volunteered. It was a lot of fun. Made some new friends and saw the marathon from a new, less painful perspective. I’ll let you know on April 26 if it works.

I think the longer the cycle, the better. I'd say the cycle length determines the level of ultimate competition:

weeks = competitive locally

months to compete regionally

1 year to compete nationally

years to compete internationally

I just naturally dream big and am amazed that most runners have short-term mundane goals, and that's it. As an extreme example, I'm presently charting a 7-year plan to make a run at the marathon American Record (55+) -- a relatively soft 2:33. Along the way I'll have micro-cycles or test races, like my first 5 weeks to debut in last fall's 3hr thread, from which I extrapolate to 2:33 in 7 years (with a lot of luck).

DietBacon wrote:

HHH which was the XC you did? Trent Park was quite muddy that day (specially since the senior men race was last), but the weather was perfect for racing. The next day, on the other hand, Ciara was making it hard to run ? I did get an easy 12 in though. How are you feeling for the big half?

I run in the Surrey League (basically clubs south of the river) and we were at Lloyd Park in Croydon. Similar kind of standard, sub-14 guy wins it. Are you going up to Nottingham for the National in a couple of days? Pictures of the park are disgusting even now. Huge amounts of standing water and the mens race will be the 8th of the day. I'm genuinely dreading it.

Big Half, yeah, not quite sure. I feel like I'm fit but have basically had a lingering cold/throat problem for a few weeks now so not 100% strong. Also had 5 vaccinations yesterday so a bit weak today as well. Assuming that all clears up I think I'll head out at 71:00 pace and see what happens. Pray for a westerly wind!

What do you think you'll be attempting to run? 69:59?

Midway through yesterday’s run, I realized I had a pretty big running total since last Friday. So I today I aimed for and hit a 100 miles in singles for the last 7 days:

F - 17 miles total (1:54:40). 1 up, 15 mile progression (6:55–>6:03), 1 down. 6:31/avg for the 15 miles.

Sa - 13 miles (1:59:25)

Su - 13 miles (1:46:55). Including “Five Gears Workout.” 5 x (1:00 each at 7:19 / 6:49 / 6:23 / 5:42 / 5:16). 6:18/avg overall for the 25:00.

M - 17 miles (2:46:20)

T - 13 miles total (1:28:40). 2 miles easy, 25:00 “MP” (6:14), 5:00 recovery jog, 20:00 “HMP” (5:40), 5:00 recovery jog, 4 x :30 “Mile P” (4:32) with 1:30 recovery jogs, 1.2 mile cooldown.

W - 11 miles (1:34:30)

Th - 16 miles (2:06:40). Last 5.5 miles at 7:20/avg.

Total: 100 miles, ~14.5 hours.

I am not sure if I’ll ever hit 100 miles in a calendar week, especially in singles. But it was pretty neat to see this come to fruition, and I actually feel pretty good overall.

But this begs the question: How many, if any, long runs did I do?...