Sub 2h30 Spring Marathon - The Quest For Amateur Glory Rides Again!

Tyler_Runs_Lifts wrote:

Curious as to what shoes everybody rotates between.

EZ/Recovery - Asics Gel Cumulus, Hoka Clifton 6

Long Run (No Workout) - Hoka Clifton 6

Long Run (Workout) - Debating what to get for new cycle

Track Workout - Hoka Rincon

Tempo Run - Hoka Rincon/Nike Vaporfly 4%

Casual Race Effort - Nike Vaporfly 4%

Hard Race Effort - Nike Next %

Thinking about snagging the Hoka Tracer 2 and/or the Carbon X.

I have almost 1000K in my Clifton 6 pair and honestly it wasn't suitable for easy or recovery runs before it reached the 500K mark. There was a gap in paces where I couldn't run because it requires quite a lot power. So it was a perfect shoe for middle long and long runs on asphalt when my legs were fresh and I was able to push. I would say that everything between 10 and 25 percent slower than the MP was fine. Below that became problematic and the pace dropped very much. Then it would be recovery jogging but I never wear a new pair for that purpose.

When people say that they cannot get more than 400 mls out of a pair, I always think that they are ruining their shoes for wearing them for wrong purpose. Every shoe become slower after 400-500K when it loses some of its cushioning. It's not as bouncy then as it was in the first place but it's still good for easy and recovery runs. I would say that normally I wear a trainer for easy, sometimes also moderate and even middle long runs or some easy pace long runs when it has 500-800K. After that it depends. I can take any trainer (not a racing flat) to the 1000K mark if I wanted to but because I have so many shoes, I do not always bother. If I liked the shoe like the situation was with the Clifton 6 I continues to wear them for the easy, short morning runs. Therefore that pair is reaching the 1000K mark and then I'll let it go.

Jeez, people have lots of shoes.

Recently I've been running in cheap shoes own brand shoes from Decathlon (European sports store) for about £10. They're light and I find them comfortable. I use them for everything on the roads except racing (I've got a pair of Vaporfly 4%) and get about 500-600 miles out of them.

Hoping to go sub 2:30 for the second time in London in April, but mileage will be lower this year, probably around 50 mpw.

@Baltsu - I'm quite injury-prone, so I probably tend to err on the side of caution more than others. I just know when I get to about 400 miles on some shoes, they become "flat," to where I am feeling the ground more than I want to. I could probably take them even further, but I'd rather not run the risk of injury at that moment.

@asdfasdf - Congratulations on getting that Sub 2hr30 marathon out of the way. I bet it was a great feeling crossing that finish line in London!

Boston this spring will be my 3rd marathon, with the first 2 being Philly 2017 and 2018, with times of 2:53 and 2:38:27 respectively. My debut marathon I was really just trying to get back into a shape after a few years of very casual running post-college. (College PRs of 14:55, 31:20, 10 mile road PR of 52:17 around that time).

My second marathon training consisted of averaging ~60MPW, very inconsistently, had a high mileage week of 90 but would do like, 40 the week after, etc. The main difference was being more consistent in long runs, with 2-3 20 milers, one 22 miler, and throwing in some marathon pace work towards the end.

So far this cycle, I've worked my way up to 63, 69, 74, and 80 miles the past 5 weeks. Hoping to top out around 90 and hold there for 8-10 weeks before tapering down. I've had some really encouraging workouts like a 19 miler this past Sunday averaging 6:13, and hit miles 13-17 at goal MP pace of 5:43. It still seems extremely difficulty to imagine sustaining that for a whole marathon, but with really my first cycle of proper marathon training, I think it's possible. We'll see!

@terradactle - Welcome to the thread! You made some great progress and your times from college show that you had a strong foundation on which you could build. Nice work on that long run. Was it a progression run with those MP miles thrown in?

reed wrote:

imagebearer wrote:

@reed how can I contact you about M10 shoes? :)

reedruns@gmail dot com. let me know what type of shoe you might be looking for as I have many that I could part ways with. I track mileage on all of them so you'd know exactly how used they are. Also let me know if you have a wide/narrow/flat foot or whatever and if you wear a 10 in everything or not.

@reed Shot you an email!

I hired a coach prior to Boston and as a result my training changed significantly.

I'd say the main difference in my training is the type and frequency of my WOs.

When I first started getting serious about running, I followed a Fitz plan which only included a handful of long run workouts with a chunk of mileage at MP progressing up to 14 at MP in a 20 mile run. The rest of my long runs were easy pace. I usually did like 1 WO of any sort per week.

With my new training most long runs were WOs and I did at least 2 WOs a week . At the peak of marathon specific training I alternate between a long fast run (about 5-8% slower than MP) and intervals at MPish for my weekly long run WOs. With the LFRs I start at 10-12 mi at 8% slower as part of a 13-15 mi run and progress to 20-21 mi at 5% slower as part of 23-24 mile run. The interval WOs start at 10x1k and progress to fewer and longer reps with the final WO being a 5x4k. The "rest" for these intervals is usually a moderate pace, not easy. Some where around 6:15-6:25 pace for me.

Early in the cycle I do speed work, hills and progression runs. Then I mix in tempo and steady state runs and 1.25, 1.5 and 2 mi repeats at paces from 10k to half pace.

Every week i do some short 10x30 sec-1min pickups as part of an easy run. I do at least 1 easy to moderate run every week which isn't a WO. I do strides at the end of some easy runs, usually the day before a WO. Often the day before a marathon specific WO I do 70-90 mins to practice running with a little fatigue in my legs.

I don't really taper much. I usually have an 18-19 mile progressive WO of 5-3-2-2 mi starting a tad slower than MP down to faster than half pace two weeks out.

For Manitoba 2019 I peaked at 80ish miles and Chicago 2019 I peaked at 85ish miles. This next

cycle looks like it will be higher as i shoot for 2:28-2:29.

If you want to talk more about training and WOs, let me know I can share even more specifics.

@jvarunner - That's wonderful that you were able to find a coach to help get the best out of you. I never did workouts in the middle of my long runs until I found my current training group, but I'll never go away from it now.

Welcome! Good to see another familiar name in this thread! Looks like there will be 3 of us on the line at Boston!

Week 2 breakdown:

Monday: Off

Tuesday: 9 miles, 7 miles easy, 6x 20" on 1 min E, 7:05 average, 159 heart rate

Wednesday: 10.20 miles, 2.5 mile warmup,8x 1 min 2 min off. 3.5 mile cooldown. Pickups: 4:58, 4:38, 4:37, 4:50, 4:44, 4:55, 4:39, 4:38. (Ran it around our local brewery but had to dodge cars on occasion. 7:00 average, 158 heart rate

Thursday: 10.2 miles, 8 miles + 6x 30 seconds on 2 min off. 7:06 average

Friday: 6.03 miles, 7:37 average, 152 heart rate

Saturday: 17 miles: 9 miles easy, 7 mile progression, 1 mile back to my car. Progression: 6:06, 5:54, 5:56, 5:51, 5:45, 5:37, 5:32. 6:38 average, 158 heart rate

Sunday: 10 miles, 7:02 average

IT band is still pretty tight. Changing my lacing did the trick for my foot issue. Excited to get into week 3.

@beersandmiles - That's a strong week right there! Nice progression in the long run.

jvarunner - I'd be curious to see a sample 2 week segment broken down by day. Your description makes it seem like a lot of quality running there...more than I'd usually try to do. How did this training work for you for Manitoba and Boston? seems like if you're doing 2 workouts plus a hard long run, plus one day being moderate...maybe you won't have enough recovery between harder days. How slow are your easy runs and your moderate runs?

I like the structure you did of starting with hills/speed/progression runs and then moving to lots of short reps and then longer reps.

Do you have Strava?

this is the weirdest thing...why would you wear your worn-out shoes for recovery runs? That's when I care the most about my shoes feeling good. Why bother ever wearing the Hoka Cliftons if you don't like it until it loses the cushioning? Why not just wear firmer shoes?

Hello all. I'm 33, hoping to target a sub-2:30 performance at the Vermont City Marathon on May 24. Sub-2:30 is the A goal, but I'll be reasonably happy with any PR - that is, faster than 2:34:06.

Background: long ago I was a lazy 800m runner - I was fine for a D3 guy, but not spectacular - 1:53 PR. After I graduated from college in 2009 I lived with a distance runner from my college team, and he was training for Chicago. I started doing his shortest runs with him just to keep getting exercise while not part of a team anymore, and after a couple of years of gradually increasing volume, I was running 100-120 mpw consistently. By spring 2013 I had run 24:55 for 8k on the roads and 1:09:20 in a HM.

I hired a coach at this point to maximize improvement, and started training for my debut marathon in fall 2013. I got into great shape heading into Twin Cities - my coach and I were targeting a 2:24-2:26 performance. A week before the race I felt a twinge in my achilles, and that was the start of a two year injury cycle that included several achilles problems and a sacral stress fracture. I ran a lot during this time but I was never really healthy, and my race results reflected that. The experience dampened my enthusiasm for serious training quite a bit.

By 2016 I was more or less healthy again, and again hired a (different) coach to help me prepare for a debut marathon, though this time with lower expectations. We limited my mileage to about 90 per week and focused on high mileage days more than high mileage weeks. This included a few stretches of nearly 60 miles in three days, followed by a recovery bloc of something like 20 miles in the three days after that. Rinse and repeat. I think I came into the race - 2016 Grandma's - very well prepared. I had done workouts including 20 miles at a steady 5:50 pace and numerous long run interval workouts such as 15 x 1k on/1k off averaging 5:25/mile pace for the on K's and 5:55/mile pace for the off k's. Unfortunately, Grandma's that year was the hottest it has ever been - over 70 at race time with a dew point not much below that, and relentless brutal sun beating down on the course. I ran 2:34:06 after coming through the half right on 75 minutes. I was disappointed with the time but happy with my performance overall; I finished at a place in the field (29th, I think) that day would have been associated with a 2:28ish performance most years.

Following this my professional life picked up quite a bit and while I continued to run daily, I set real training aside and I never averaged more than 60 mpw or raced seriously until fall 2018, when life settled a bit again and I started to get hungry for workouts and real fitness once more. I ran okay from fall 2018 to fall 2019, mostly averaging around 70 mpw and running well in a few XC races, though never producing times I was proud of on the roads. In the second half of 2019 I produced a few 80-85 mile weeks and felt big improvements in fitness, though again without corresponding race results.

The last few months I've felt an increased desire to train hard and give things one more try before I decide whether or not to become a more casual runner for good. I'll always love running and I hope to put in a hour a day throughout most if not all of my life, but I may not always love racing, and I'm fine with that. I'm also open to the possibility that a successful spring training cycle - not necessarily defined by breaking 2:30, though it would help - will impassion me enough to keep me racing for a while longer.

In any case, I've started with a fire in my belly during the first three full weeks of 2020 with the Vermont City Marathon on the calendar for May 24, and I've logged totals of 82, 81, and 75 miles for these weeks. This has included a few workouts:

-a four mile tempo run at 5:34 average

- a 16M long run at 6:34 average

- a seven mile aerobic threshold run at 5:46 average

- an 18M long run at 6:40 average

- a set of 8 x 800m at 2:33 average with 400m jog recovery

- a 12M steady run at 5:56 average (17M total for the run)

- Wednesday's planned session: 5-6 x 1 mile cruise intervals at 5:20-5:25 with 90 secs recovery

I'm hoping to push my mileage to an average of 90 mpw starting this week. I'm going to do another three weeks of general fitness building rotating through workouts like the above, and then start getting marathon specific. I'd love to hear suggestions from others and I look forward to following the thread.

Sounds like you are well on your way. Do you still have a coach? VM City marathon isn't exactly the easiest PB course, so I commend you. I'll be there and cheer you on (likely not running it). Since you have an injury past, my suggestion is to keep up the work you did to rehab in order to keep the injuries away. Building a foundation in which to add miles onto will also help (i.e. strength building).

Hi Shane33. Nope, no coach for this cycle, but I'm using many of the insights I gained from the coach I worked with in 2016. These include

- thinking about adding up lots of high mileage days, rather than high mileage weeks, and not being shy about limiting mileage significantly on recovery days. After the hardest workouts I'll do just a 40 minute shakeout the next day, then a 60 minute easy run the following day, then a couple of 10/5 or 12/6 mile double days leading into the next big workout. The idea is to do the toughest workouts with my legs already a little fatigued, then take recovery very seriously afterward.

- making quality the focus of most long runs, and treating long slow distance only as preparation for long faster distance, rather than a goal in itself. There will not be many easy paced long runs after I start the specific portion of my cycle.

- using a relatively short (12 week) specific marathon buildup, preceded by a period of more general running fitness work that touches all major systems (speed, VO2, LT, AT, endurance) regularly.

As for strength work, I'm doing deadlifts, hip strengthening exercise, and core work every third day. I don't think there are any silver bullets for me, but I'm hopeful this will keep injuries at bay.

I've heard that VCM has one tough hill around 17 miles, but is otherwise a pretty fast course. It's also on the USATF New England circuit this year, so I'm hoping for plenty of people to run with around the pace I will be targeting.

You definitely will have people to run with, but the profile is a bit more hilly than that from my understanding:

https://www.runvermont.org/vermont-city-marathon-relay/course-map/

You run any of the other USATFNE road races?

WRT your strength- Good stuff. I would also look to strengthen and keep loose the chain to your achilles. Calves, hamstrings, glutes.

reed wrote:

jvarunner - I'd be curious to see a sample 2 week segment broken down by day. Your description makes it seem like a lot of quality running there...more than I'd usually try to do. How did this training work for you for Manitoba and Boston? seems like if you're doing 2 workouts plus a hard long run, plus one day being moderate...maybe you won't have enough recovery between harder days. How slow are your easy runs and your moderate runs?

I like the structure you did of starting with hills/speed/progression runs and then moving to lots of short reps and then longer reps.

Do you have Strava?

I mistyped early. I only do 2 WOs maximum in a given week, but my overall number of WOs has increased significantly since hiring my coach.

When I do my longest LFRs (i.e 20-21 miles @95% of MP) that is my only WO for the week. Followed by 2 days of short er recovery/easy runs (30-40 mins then 50-60 mins ).

My easy runs are around 7:15-7:30 pace. My E to Mod runs start out at and easy pace and pick it up after a few miles. Previously my avg pace on E to Mod was in 6:30-6:45 range. Recently they have been in the 6:20-6:35 range with the same perceived effort . The pace I drop down to depends on how I am feeling.

I'd say my training has gone really well. I ran 2:40 at Boston the year it extremely cold with a 20+MPH headwind.

I did suffer a stress reaction in the summer of 2018 that put me on the shelf for several weeks. As a result, my coach cut doubles from my training and we backed off on peak mileage from 90s to 80s.

I bounced back pretty well from injury and was able to run 2:36:03 at Manitoba. The plan was to run 2:34ish, but I got caught up trying to keep 2nd and 3rd place in my sights and strayed from my plan. I actually ended up finishing 2nd because everyone slowed down, I just slowed down later in the race and less.

I had my fastest marathon at Chicago in the fall. Goal was 2:31:30 and I ran 2:31:40.

I have Strava. If you look up my results you can find my name "Jason" and then easily find my strava. I finished second at the 2019 Manitoba Marathon and 157th at 2019 Chicago.

I will also post some of my training . My coach gives me a schedule 2 weeks at a time and includes directions on how to approach runs and WOs with prescribed paces for my WOs as well. My easy runs are by time on the feet and I usually have specific mileage for my WOs. Although I have prescribed paces, my coach emphasizes running by feel and effort. I think my body is well in tune with what MP and HMP effort should feel like. Less so with the faster paces since I don't race the shorter stuff as often.

PowSloke wrote:

Tyler: 400? Yikes! Sounds like that would get expensive. I probably put around 1500 on each pair of zantes, but maybe I can get away with that since I'm on the lighter side and the zantes are pretty minimal to start with so there isn't much to wear away.

jvarunner: Welcome! Looks like we're in similar places, except that you are a year or two ahead of me. What did you think of Fargo? I'm running it this spring hoping for 2:32:xx after going 2:36:50 at Indy in November, so that's very much like your 2019 progression. What's your training been like the past couple of years?

I posted about my training in this thread. I have made significant progress in the past couple of years. Hoping to run 2:28:xx at Grandma's in 2020.

Fargo is very flat. But i can be windy and there are a number of sharp turns throughout the course. It can be a very fast course if the conditions are good (i.e no strong winds). I ran 2:40:12 in 2017 and finished 8th. So depending on who shows up, 2:32 could be in contention for prize money (top 3).

Here are 4 weeks near the peak of my training for Chicago in 2019

9/2-9/8

Mon - 40min easy

Tue - 60min easy w/30min of (30sec fast starting every 3min) in the middle

Wed - 75min easy to moderate

Thur - 15min progressing easy to moderate + 4 strides

3x3km at 3:35-3:30/km (5:45-5:39/mi) + 1km at~3:20-3:15

3min jog recovery between all

15min easy cooldown

Fri - 70min easy w/5x25sec strides in last mile

Sat - 90min easy to moderate

Sun - 10min progressing easy to moderate + 4 strides

7x3km at 3:48-3:38/km (6:05-5:49/mi) w/ 1km at 4:10-4:00 recovery(6:40-6:30/mi)

8min easy cooldown

9/9-9/15

Mon - 40min easy

Tue - 60min easy w/5x25sec strides in last mile

Wed - 75min easy to moderate w/ 40min of (1min strong starting every 4min) in the middle

Thur - 70min easy

Fri - 80min progressing easy to strong

Sat - 70min easy w/5x25sec strides in last mile

Sun - 10min progressing very easy to moderate + 20mi at 6:23- 6:12/mi + 0-4 minute CD

9/16-9/22

Mon - 40min easy

Tue - 60min easy w/ 5x25sec strides in last mile

Wed - 70min easy to moderate w/ 30min of (30sec fast starting every 3min) in the middle

Thur - 10min progressing easy to moderate + 4 strides + 3 sets of:

1.25mi at 5:30-20/mi

2.5min easy run

0.75mi at 5:18-12/mi

3.5min easy run

12min easy cooldown

Fri - 70min easy

Sat - 80min easy w/ 5x25sec strides in last mile

Sun - 10min progressing easy to moderate + 4 strides

5x4km at 3:45-3:35/km (6:02-5:45/mi)

w/ 1km at 4:00 recovery (6:30/mi)

8min easy cooldown

9/23-9/29

Mon - 45min easy

Tue - 70min easy to moderate w/ 40min of (1min strong starting every 4min) in the middle

Wed - 70min easy

Thur - 85min progressing easy to moderate

Fri - 70min easy w/ 5x25sec strides in last mile

Sat - 10min progressing easy to moderate + 4 strides

5mi at 6:05-6:00/mi

0.5mi at 6:30/mi

3mi at 5:50-5:44/mi

0.5mi at 6:30/mi

2mi at 5:42-5:37

0.5mi at 6:30/mi

2mi at 5:35-5:30

4min easy cooldown

Sun - 45min easy