NC State Athlete Development - Women's Team

Track guy scholarship wrote:

I would be even less likely to send my daughter if she was top 10 in running because I would want a program with demonstrated improvement. I wouldn't send her because she is too good academically.

If you want a program with demonstrated improvement then you will skip the NCAA altogether. There is not a single school with demonstrated improvement. For every one athlete that develops, another two or three or more flounder. At every school. Boys (or girls), alcohol, and late nights studying are not conducive to development for young women.

Choppa wrote:

Duked wrote:

Then post names of women who developed really well besides the coach's daughter. That was the question I was asking. I don't care about Tuohy.

Forest makes a good point but women are a lil more delicate than guys are in regard to developing or staying stagnant. Theirs a lot more “maintenance” work that as a coach You have to be proactive about and see the Signs early on. Overtraining, emotional distress, etc girls don’t show it as easily they try to hide it and arent open like guys are. So it’s tough but I think henes will do a great job with her!

I agree with a lot written here. Even more important for Tuohy to be coached by a female coach. They can see signs that male coaches can't. Also, pipe down on the name will ya?

show me wrote:

Duked wrote:

Since so many great high school seniors just committed to NC State, I was doing some research to see what other top recruits have done at NC State. I could not find many top recruits that improved much. For example the Fraziers.

How would you rate the progress of top women in the NC State program?

So show us your list of "top recruits" who didn't improve much assuming you actually have one and were not just lying to set up a mention of the Fraziers.

I don't want to list names of women who failed. That seems unnecessarily cruel.

If you know of any women that developed extraordinarily well there, go ahead and post their high school times and their college times.

Duked wrote:

show me wrote:

So show us your list of "top recruits" who didn't improve much assuming you actually have one and were not just lying to set up a mention of the Fraziers.

I don't want to list names of women who failed. That seems unnecessarily cruel.

If you know of any women that developed extraordinarily well there, go ahead and post their high school times and their college times.

LOL. Called it.

You didn't have any problem calling out the Fraziers.

show me wrote:

Duked wrote:

I don't want to list names of women who failed. That seems unnecessarily cruel.

If you know of any women that developed extraordinarily well there, go ahead and post their high school times and their college times.

LOL. Called it.

You didn't have any problem calling out the Fraziers.

I don't want this to turn into a list of failed athletes. I used a couple examples, but I'd rather emphasize the athletes that got significantly better at NC State.

It’s hard for us to go and research her accomplishments at NC state I’m sure someone can but no one knows better than. I’m sure if you ask her she has many stories of going from one mediocre to a contender or from someone on the sidelines to someone who is in the top 7. Maybe they don’t become all-Americans so you don’t recognize it. But we as coaches know that we have many stories of say a girl who was running 20 min for 5k improve to 17:50 or 22:00 for 6k from a 24:00. They may never be rockstars but that improvement takes dedication and commitment from the athlete as well as support from their coach. I’m sure henes has many many of these stories she could tell.

It’s hard for us to go and research her accomplishments at NC state I’m sure someone can but no one knows better than her. I’m sure if you ask her she has many stories of someone going from a mediocre runner to a contender or from

being someone on the sidelines to someone who is in the top 7. Maybe they don’t become all-Americans so you don’t recognize it. But, as coaches we know that we have many stories of say a girl who was running 20 min for 5k improve to 17:50 or 22:00 for 6k from a 24:00. They may never be rockstars but that improvement takes dedication and commitment from the athlete as well as support from their coach. I’m sure henes has many many of these stories she could tell.

Fixed my mistakes

I did an analysis of all of the recent runners for the NC State women and tried to figure out how they developed since high school. I scored them based on the ratings:

1--Significantly Regressed

2--Regressed

3--Stagnant

4--Improved

5--Much Improved

Average Rating: 3.8 (Somewhat Improved)

BUT I recognize that my data didn’t well capture the fact that several athletes got injured and couldn’t really compete, transferred schools mid-way through college, got cut for one reason or another, or quit collegiate running altogether. Also, a lot of these athletes had years when they improved and years when they regressed, and my analysis doesn’t really capture that.

BUT I am confident in saying that IF an athlete sticks with the program and doesn’t get perpetually injured, then they should improve at least somewhat during their time at NC State

However, I must note that NC State does not appear to really develop mid-distance athletes. In general, they mostly create good 5000m runners on the track, or have aerobically-based 1500m runners. So not good for low-mileage or pure mid-d athletes.

Alyssa Rudawsky

HS: 800--2:18, 1600--5:03, 5000 (XC)--18:22

College: 1500--4:32, 3000--9:32, 5000--16:26

NCAA XC Participant

Rating: Improved (4)

Anna Vess

HS: 800--2:13, 1600--4:59, 3200--10:42, 5000 (XC)--17:40

College: 800--2:16, 1500--4:21, Mile--4:46, 5000 (XC)--17:26

Rating: Improved (4)

Bethany Neeley

HS: 800--2:11, 1600--4:42, 3200--10:52, 3000S--10:19, 5000 (XC)--18:04

College: 800--2:13, 1500--4:28, Mile--4:51, 3000--10:09, 3000S--10:41 5000 (XC)--17:42

Rating: Regressed (2)

Bethlehem Taye

HS: 1600--5:02, 2 Mile--10:35, 5000 (XC)--18:08

College: 5000--16:38

NCAA XC Participant

Rating: Improved (4)

NOTE: She hasn’t posted many results from college, though when she does they are pretty good. Has injuries sidelined her?

Bianca Bishop

HS: 1600--5:13, 3200--10:50, 5000 (XC)--17:40

College: 1500--4:48, Mile--5:10, 3000--9:51, 5000--17:08, 10000--35:45

NCAA XC Participant

Rating: Improved (4)

Dominique Clairmonte

HS: 1600--4:52, 3200--10:43, 5000 (XC)--17:29

College: 1500--4:18, Mile--4:38, 3000--9:19, 5000--15:55

NCAA XC Participant

Rating: Much Improved (5)

Elly Henes

HS: Mile--4:53, 3200--10:24, 5000 (XC)--17:17

College: 1500--4:18, Mile--4:38, 3000--9:06, 5000--15:31

NCAA XC, Indoor, Outdoor Participant. 4 Time All-American

Rating: Much Improved (5)

Heather Holt

HS: 1500--4:33, 3200--10:42, 5000 (XC)--17:18

College: 1500--4:28, 3000--9:46, 5000--16:36

NCAA XC Participant

Rating: Improved (4)

Isabel Zimmermann

HS: 1600--4:59, 3200--10:41, 5000 (XC)--18:04

College: 1500--4:39, 3000--9:43, 5000--16:36

NCAA XC Participant

Rating: Improved (4)

Julia Zachgo

HS: 800--2:15, 1500--4:33, 3000--10:03, 5000 (XC)--17:44

College: 800--2:17, 1500--4:25, 3000--9:40, 5000 (XC)--17:00

NCAA XC Participant

Rating: Improved (4)

NOTE: Zachgo looks poised to have a good year this year, so her rating may improve after this year if she stays healthy

Nevada Mareno

HS: 1500--4:18, Mile--4:43, 2 Mile--10:00, 5000 (XC)--16:36

College: 1500--4:17, Mile--4:45, 3000--9:30, 5000--16:14

NCAA XC Participant

Rating: Stagnant (3)

NOTE: Went to Stanford Freshman year. Also, there was an article on Milesplit from when Mareno was in HS about her anxiety that got so bad that she had a hard time training at all her senior year. I think it’s great that she has been able to post any results in college

Nell Crosby

5th Year transfer from Columbia. Ran slightly slower than her PRs from Columbia, but placed higher at NCAA XC and NCAA Outdoor Championships while at NC State

Rating: Stagnant (3)

Rachel Koon

HS: 1600--5:40, 3200--11:45, 5000--18:41

College: 1500--4:33, Mile--4:50, 3000--9:09, 5000--16:01

NCAA XC, Indoor Participant, 1 All-American

Rating: Much Improved (5)

Rebekah Greengrass

HS: 1600--5:02, 3200--10:49, 5000 (XC)--17:56

College: 1500--4:46, Mile--5:03, 3000--9:55, 5000--17:32

Rating: Stagnant (3)

Ryen Frazier

HS: Mile--4:38, 3200--10:05, 5000--16:12

College: 1500--4:23, 3000--9:19, 5000--16:02

NCAA XC Participant

Rating: Stagnant (3)

NOTE: Trained by her father in College, so she does not factor into the overall average

Savannah Shaw

HS: 1600--4:49, 3000--10:04, 5000 (XC)--17:58

College: Mile--4:47, 5000--17:11

NCAA XC Participant

Rating: Stagnant (3)

NOTE: She is only in her second year, so there may not be enough information yet to be able to tell whether or not she will improve

List missing Mariah Howlett and Sarah Latour.

Also Savannah Shaw ran U20 XC worlds so that would distracted from NCAA work.

Ok, here are the results from the longitudinal study. I have taken the top 2 seniors at FL and looked at their progress. I did that because we are looking at progression of top HS girls, which is a lot tougher than progression of a mildly trained HS girl.

2018:

Connolly (Stanford) did not compete

Covert (Colorado) did not compete

So don’t get overly stressed out if one or more of the N.C. recruits does not compete in XC next year

2017:

Theis (Michigan) has not competed

Lee (Georgetown) has not competed

Oops, i’m Starting to see a pattern here. But there is still time for them.

2016:

Mareno (NC State): 5000m PB 16:14 NCAA finish this year: 131 - obviously has time to improve on this

Johnson (Michigan St) 5000m PB 16:14 NCAA finish this year: 239 - obviously has time to improve on this

Ok, some of the top girls actually do end up competing. Will you look at that, up to now, someone from N.C. State is doing the best

2015:

Gilbert (ND) has not competed

Pendergast (Harvard) 5000mPB 15:52 NCAA finish this year: 251

Will you look at this. Mareno still did the best of all of them at this year’s XC

2014:

Rohrer (ND) 5000mPB 15:29

R. Frazier (NC State) 5000mPB 16:02

Rohrer has done well in the NCAA. When you look at the list above, is R Frazier such a bust in College?Again an N.C. State runner who actually did something in College. Only 4/12 of the girls in this list have done better than her at 5000m

2013:

Barrett (Penn State) 5000mPB 15:28 - best performance of the bunch. But of course her NCAA career is over, while most of the others above still have eligibility.

Alcorta (Vill) 5000mPB 15:45

Both of them have done well. Barrett more than Alcorta of course.

What do we conclude from this? 5/12 of the top HS girls ended up never competing in the NCAA, even though they have been recruited (of course, the 2018 and 2017 graduates probably still have a chance). All of the N.C. State recruits did compete and improved on their HS times (even R. Frazier. Note that her sister W. Frazier has the N.C. State school record for 3000m at 9:01)

Note that Henes was 23rd at NXN in her senior year and now has a 15:41 PB (which only 2/12 of the girls on this list have surpassed). Also, Chmiel who did not compete at FL, but was the top senior last year at NXN, ran a 16:02 earlier this month. Only 4/12 girls above have done better during their collegiate career. I assume that Chmiel will probably improve on that in the next 4 years. Who knows, she may end up running faster than Barrett.

So how does N.C. State look compared to the other Colleges? I would say on par or better.

Sorry, 15:31 for Henes (almost on par with Rohrer and Barrett)

Very surprised this post didn't get deleted by the mods despite the truth behind it...

So only 2 NCAA All-Americans. One is the coach's daughter (both parents were NCAA All-Americans). The other was a walk on that eventually ran faster than all the top recruits.

Looks like it's a program where you can improve a little bit but they struggle to produce elite athletes and All-Americans. Compare that to Colorado who in 2018 had 6 girls go All-American in XC.

Programs like Furman produce more improvement and All-Americans.

fox hunt wrote:

So only 2 NCAA All-Americans. One is the coach's daughter (both parents were NCAA All-Americans). The other was a walk on that eventually ran faster than all the top recruits.

Looks like it's a program where you can improve a little bit but they struggle to produce elite athletes and All-Americans. Compare that to Colorado who in 2018 had 6 girls go All-American in XC.

Programs like Furman produce more improvement and All-Americans.

Looks like another sour grapes post. Look at NCSUs results.

fox hunt wrote:

So only 2 NCAA All-Americans. One is the coach's daughter (both parents were NCAA All-Americans). The other was a walk on that eventually ran faster than all the top recruits.

Looks like it's a program where you can improve a little bit but they struggle to produce elite athletes and All-Americans. Compare that to Colorado who in 2018 had 6 girls go All-American in XC.

Programs like Furman produce more improvement and All-Americans.

Just looked it up. Your statement about Furman is not true. Sour grapes.

DistanceRunner14 wrote:

fox hunt wrote:

So only 2 NCAA All-Americans. One is the coach's daughter (both parents were NCAA All-Americans). The other was a walk on that eventually ran faster than all the top recruits.

Looks like it's a program where you can improve a little bit but they struggle to produce elite athletes and All-Americans. Compare that to Colorado who in 2018 had 6 girls go All-American in XC.

Programs like Furman produce more improvement and All-Americans.

Looks like another sour grapes post. Look at NCSUs results.

Dude the results are posted in this thread in a very scientific manner.

NC State grads have no reading comprehension. Shoot from the hip. In a fantasy world, it is a great school where runners develop.

Indoor? wrote:

DistanceRunner14 wrote:

Looks like another sour grapes post. Look at NCSUs results.

Dude the results are posted in this thread in a very scientific manner.

Then name the 3 All Americans that Furman produced this year.

fox hunt wrote:

So only 2 NCAA All-Americans. One is the coach's daughter (both parents were NCAA All-Americans). The other was a walk on that eventually ran faster than all the top recruits.

Looks like it's a program where you can improve a little bit but they struggle to produce elite athletes and All-Americans. Compare that to Colorado who in 2018 had 6 girls go All-American in XC.

Programs like Furman produce more improvement and All-Americans.

LOL at the 2018 Colorado reference. They have a lot of AAs because they recruit a lot of HS AAs.

And you conveniently skipped over 2019. NC State 5th. Colorado 10th.

Henes (10th) and Chmiel (22nd) AAs. Colorado's first finisher at 38th.

NC State's scorers other than Chmiel except for maybe Henes would have likely not have been able to go to Colorado as freshmen even if they wanted to. That suggests superior development at NC State.

NC State has obviously now solved the recruiting deficiency. If you want to make an argument about development using the number of AA s then give the number of college AAs versus the number of HS AA recruits. Who has the better percentage?