Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 11/3/19 (NYC Marathon Edition)

"It doesn't get any easier, you just get faster." -a cyclist, but applicable

Boston winners navigating downstairs the day after the race:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFgdP2c9GQc

(Kirui made it look pretty easy, but he could be fronting for all we know.)

BHViking wrote:

It makes me wonder what it actually takes to finish the marathon feeling strong (or maybe, no one does?)

After 2 terrible Bostons, I made it my goal for my 3rd in 2015 to make it to the finish line in a time I would be satisfied with, not necessarily my best time or even the best time that I might be able to run. 3:30 was that time, and I ran the race with meeting that goal time in mind. I did not stray faster than the splits 3:30 required even though at times I felt like I could and reined myself in. I did not want to risk another bust of a race (though the weather was more than 40 degrees cooler in 2015 than in 2012, and I learned some valuable lessons from poor race preparation and execution that led me to drop out in 2014). I came over Heartbreak Hill all right and felt strong over the last miles because I had run the preceding 21 miles so conservatively. Sure I left quite a bit out on the course, but to me, that day, somewhat less than my best was better than ending up with another terrible result. (I finished in 3:29.)

Any other time I've reached for better than that, regardless of how I ended up, I've finished the last 4-6 miles hanging on for dear life at worst, hanging on with deadened legs at best -- certainly not FEELING strong. But those times I've never purposely held back.

Yeah, you guys are right. It's a race and it's just gonna hurt no matter what. It just baffles me when I hear stuff like "every WR over 800m was negative split" (I'm not sure if that's actually true) as well as stories of non-elites actually negative splitting the marathon in their PR's.

I guess I'm just feeling a little skittish with a marathon less than 5 weeks out and hearing JQ's Herculean recount. I would kill to finish with splits right around average pace for the entire race, such as what JQ was able to do (my splits would obviously be much slower than his but you get the idea).

And yes, it's rare for anyone on this thread to not push the envelope. I intend on running my marathon as well as I can as well so it's likely going to hurt. We all just need to be mentally tough in those final miles. We know we are capable of maintaining pace even though it requires maximum effort. I think it was Coach Stone that recently said something about just winning each mile and resetting at each split. I'm also going to tell myself "There is no tomorrow". In other words, there is nothing coming up to save energy for (I plan on taking a week or 2 of rest after the race). I'm sure there are even better mental motivators to draw on in those final miles as well.

I ran a short tempo on Monday 6:48-6:12-6:02-3:00 .. it hurt. Went 7:45-6:54-6:39-6:32-5:54 today .. it hurt a lot less.

Think it will be manageable.

My massage therapist just gave me a good rub down .. and was in agreement that it is not piriformis.. or hip adductors etc.. was most likely just a freak nerve pinch that is still unwinding.

Now just gonna jog around for a couple days and give it hell no matter what.

Looking forward to running w the crew.

Allen - Great to see you here! Your comments are very encouraging. A 2:42:xx would be a fine effort, and I look forward to toeing the line and taking a good crack at sub-2:45. Coach Stone has been very encouraging, and has commented similarly on what he thinks I can do on race day.

I very much appreciate all of the feedback and positivity here, as one never knows what is going to happen in a marathon (it being such a long race), and so it is great to hear that people have faith in my running.

My coworker has a horse show on the same day that I will be running Richmond, and she informed me this morning that the current forecast is for a cold morning with a chance of snow showers. We will see...

Comments:

OR - You are peaking at the right time. All systems go in 11 more days.

Niceguy - Great volume in 6 days. Good luck with the taper.

AJ - Best of luck at Indy. Don’t let it come down to a 5:30 last mile this time. Let the giraffe loose.

slo - You are ready. Hammer.

RRR - You seem to be on the physical and mental mend the past few days. Nothing to lose. Show up, shut up, and run. I still see a big PR coming for you.

hoggy jobber - Nice progression finishing around HM goal pace. You have been very consistent the past month or so. My unsolicited advice? You don’t need a big taper heading into raceday. I like that you have some planned days off, but I wouldn’t cutback too much on volume or workload otherwise. For a HM guy training off relatively lower mileage, it’s all about finding and establishing a rhythm going into the race, and then executing that same rhythm in the race. I would recommend practicing some tempos or broken tempos at HM goal pace these last few weeks.

Legendre - Looking strong on the homestretch. 5 x 1.5 miles is a big workout and you had bad weather, so I wouldn’t worry too much about the paces being about :05 to :10 slower than you probably wanted. The rest of your training has looked really good.

HHW - Good luck in your tuneup. I agree that you are running your tempo miles a bit fast, and I think it wouldn’t hurt to slow down a tad on some of your easy days as well. Your body will appreciate it the closer you get to the marathon as your workouts get bigger.

darkwave - Good luck at Indy! Sorry to hear about your house. Thankfully nobody was injured, pets included. When I was young, we lost a home to a house fire, and I learned at a young age that things are replaceable, but loved ones aren’t.

GT - You have had a great cycle. Go get your reward.

Bdubs - Sorry to hear about the cramping issues, but congrats on the PR nonetheless. Motivation to find another race in the not-too-distant future to give it another go.

Sub 6:00 - Your approach back from Chicago is looking good. I like stat’s recommendation: get that sub 5:00 and sub 16:00 in one shot.

Napper - You look to be rebounding nicely. I know treadmill running sucks. But that’s a helluva tempo you pulled out on Saturday.

JQ - Congrats again on a great performance. My initial thought after tracking you and reading your report was the exact opposite regarding your last few miles. Like Sub 6:00 (and I am sure a few others) I was worried you went out too aggressively for that course. Your HM split (1:17:01) was pretty close to your PR up until a few weeks ago! But it was all those miles forging strength this year, all those wonderfully executed workouts, all that preparation that allowed you to tough it out when it got really rough that resonated. Marathons are supposed to be hard. What made yours more impressive in my eyes (and I am sure in the eyes of others) is that you ATTACKED this race. That takes some serious self-belief, guts, maybe some naivete too...but hey...well done, man.

IllinoisRunner - Welcome back!

BHViking - Looks like you and I had similar weeks - rough starts, but ending on a good note. I hope this week treats you better.

Coach Jeff - Great race, great report, great insight into “real” thoughts.

GNR1 - Week after week, you show up and run. Great cutdown on that long run.

Bruin - You and I will have to do some talking the closer we get to CIM. There’s a chance we might want to work together. Nothing wrong with a cutback week, planned or unplanned. Many times it’s a blessing in disguise.

RunnerSam - I know you aren’t hitting the volume you want to yet, but I am glad to see you getting fitness back after your health issues. And OG VFs was shorthand for the original Vaporflys.

LancRunner - I don’t know how you even got any running in last week. Power to you.

Runn3rgirl - A couple of nice race results this past week. It’s a shame we didn’t get to see the training leading up to it and up to Richmond. Any way that you are able to post even a snapshot of your build? Best of luck on your OTQ quest.

pewow - Glad to see you still got it. Ha.

mikemike - Welcome. I second Still Improving’s thoughts. Personally, I think some of those Daniels workouts are impossible. 2 x 4 miles T off a 1 mile recovery jog is a pretty tough workout as it is. But imbedded in a 21 miler!? And that Q1 workout would be next to impossible for me to complete as a race, let alone a workout. I think abbreviating some of the warmups/cooldowns/quality is necessary for mortals.

Pappy - “I guess I’ll spend the week correcting two out of the three.” You are always good for a laugh.

NYC 2020 - There’s a very good chance that the Family Stone will be racing individually there.

Still Improving - Nothing ever wrong with being patient. Next to toughness, probably the most important quality that a marathoner can have (unless you are JQ!).

RGMW - Let us know that you survived the 50 miler, man!

jot quill: Great Racing!!! OTQ is what A 2:15 B 2:19 you never know. Go for it.

Coach Jeff: Great race!!!

angryjohnny wrote:

Lanc - it looks cold. Like 20s at the start maybe going up to the 30s. Light winds. Ideal conditions for a hammerfest.

RS - I did 5k@M today. Wednesday is 5x1k @M. I don’t consider those workouts. Just the finishing touches.

Desisa and Hall’s attempts at NYC to go back to back has me thinking I’ve got my hands full. We shall see. Will be an interesting little experiment for sure.

AJ - do you have your comprehensive training for this block listed anywhere? I am very curious to see how your structured your build.

This is 100% right, and you're going to do great. After reading through the responses here — it feels like it's just the nature of the marathon. It pushes your body to the limit with its length. I've only raced one half marathon, but my experience was a millions time different. I feel like I could run that again and get pretty close to my limit while feeling amazing the last few miles.

Sure. You want just the 5 weeks since Berlin or also the comeback/build-up to Berlin? Either way I’ll have to pull it together. I’ve been kinda winging it.

mikemike wrote:

For the 2Q veterans: did you also find it challenging to do all of this continuous M and T and E switching at first? Did your legs get used to it? Any ideas on how to adapt?

I have used Daniels programs as the basis of my training for several marathons and I have always had to adjust many of the Q workouts, particularly the midweek ones. They were way too hard, first because I just didn't have the volume I think they require as background and now that I have run higher mileage I still think they are way too hard (for me). I modified them in my buildup this fall so that I could still get benefits from that type of workout without trashing myself trying to do them as prescribed. Whether or not I did it right will be seen in a couple weeks. :-)

darkwave wrote:

Oof Jewbacca - that is a hard call. I've heard about that surgery (fortunately, I'm nowhere near being a candidate) - my concern with it for a marathoner would be whether the loss of that bit of intestine would reduce one's ability to absorb nutrition when running hard.

Missed this last week. I had 3-4" removed in 2007, and I haven't really had any issues nutritionally. That portion of the gut is responsible for Vitamin B12 absorption, but my blood work has only shown low B12 once. Even then it was within range. As long as I stay on top of my supplements I can keep my levels on the upper end. I do worry a little about having more taken out. They're talking about a smaller section this time, so hopefully the impact would be minimal, but every bit will be a negative for B12.

Busy week this week. Some limited comments with coffee before I get to work...

AJ: Looking forward to the back-to-back. Agreed about affects of backing off from tempo to marathon. Taper well.

RRR: Glad you'll be on the line. Does a peanut butter and jelly waffle count as a serving of fruit?

hoggyjobber: The paces look great for your 1:35 HM goal. Your longest run this week was 11 miles... how are you feeling about the 13 mile distance?

HHworm: Best of luck in the HM. Interesting observation about the perceived effort at vdot. Sunday's T miles were all faster than Wednesday's. One of JD's themes is to do the work at the right pace/effort to get the effect you're looking for from that workout. Of course, I'd rather be running faster than vdot and feeling good like you, than slower and feeling pressed.

jot quill: Hope you're not tired of congrats quite yet, cuz here's another one. Most of us have experienced that line between maintaining status quo and and seizing into a ball of muscular agony during the last miles of a marathon. You ran smart and sooo wicked fast. Complete respect!

Darkwave: Appreciate the comments RE:imposter syndrome. Having the two experiences relatively close together--with positive rather than negative results-- has me back in the proper mindset.

Lanc: Hope that foot is OK. Good week given the sched.

TL: I laughed when I saw your comment about "your approach." I've been a GPS and HRM data junkie for so long... I'm just trying this oldschool for a while. Mentally, it's a different ballgame because when you are racing the watch, your competition is arbitrarily relentless and inevitably ruthless whereas the actual guy in front of you might have scarfed down a peanut butter and jelly waffle just before the gun.

Your comment matches other comments as well as other research. I need to get more consistent on pacing T and M miles at the actual prescribed VDOT value (56). Right now I am running between a 57 and 58 which is probably well beyond my actual HM or M abilities and are more in line with what I could probably do for an 8-10k. Presumably I will pay the price for this later in the training cycle as the workouts get harder, or perhaps, my fitness will evolve and I’ll ease my way into managing these paces for longer efforts. This HM will probably tell me quite a bit.

I will say the three T miles on Sunday only yielded a HR in the mid to low 160s which is around 80% max HR for me so the perceived effort is backed by some data.

angryjohnny wrote:

Sure. You want just the 5 weeks since Berlin or also the comeback/build-up to Berlin? Either way I’ll have to pull it together. I’ve been kinda winging it.

Thanks, AJ. Honestly, as much as you are willing to provide.

Question for the group in general and would love to hear the responses.

It seems like a lot of people here are training at a pretty high level, but also seem to stick to some pretty stock plans (Daniels, etc.) From your point of view, why do you guys think you trend this way and do not use coaches?

Do you think your performance would be better using a coach instead of more traditional models?

This thread is a great coach. What to do. And at times what not to do.

Darkwave - glad I asked, my further question was really asking the purpose of slower than MP work in general(moderate) and not with respect to the taper, with the taper it is different and not really relevant.

Taper - Reduction in Volume, but keeping the quality with reducing quality volume seems like the way to go.

AJ - I'd consider the 5k and 5x1k workouts, even if they are a breeze at MP. Sounds like a good taper then though

+1 to RGMW comment

Stone - alright Original Gangster Vapor Flys, I wouldnt quite call it 'health issues' yet, just need to figure it out. adjusting the diet recently, cutting out caffeine, less dairy and less acidic foods so far.

I don't use any plans, I more just have a training ideology and apply it around life as it plays out. I generally have a good idea how training will look in a week or a month but I deal with the specifics when I get to it.

Would a coach help? tough question, probably but maybe just more on the motivation side. It would be nice to have a 'removed' set of eyes on my training but I would have a hard time paying or asking that of somebody. For a coach to really work there has to be a good fit and im not sure how easy it would be to find. Part of me thinks it would be fun to just have each day planned out and follow through with blind trust.

I know I could be faster if I did more strides, ran more volume, lifted or did body weight exercises. I'd be more inclined to get a coach for my wife who is much quicker than I.