RE: Dave Wottle's training
I can offer up something on that, although others have much more in-depth info. I ran at Wottle's alma mater, Bowling Green, and was coached by his teammate Sid Sink. As best I can tell, Sid trained us more or less the same way he was trained by Mel Brodt, who I believe learned his stuff at Miami University and was likely heavily influenced by Mihaly Igloi.
All our middle-distance men ran cross country and were expected to take it seriously. Wottle himself was an All-American in cross country, but 10th or 12th at the NCAA meet isn't that great when you consider he won more NCAA track titles than Jim Ryun did. We did 80 to 90 miles a week, about 30 of it in morning runs, with two interval workouts a week and our weekly Sunday "long" run never exceeded 13 miles in all the years I was there. Hard anaerobic stuff all the time, and the word "peak" was rarely heard. Sid is a fine man, one of the most honest and trustworthy individuals I've ever known, but we were trained on a 1950s model. No emphasis on aerobic development, no form work, no specific power/speed development. I had some success because I stumbled on an out-of-print copy of one of Arthur's books at a garage sale, and while I didn't fully grasp it I did run 100 aerobic miles a week during the off-season, with two of those summers spent in an extremely hilly area.
Sid himself regularly exceeded 100 miles per week when he was in college. I'd guess that it was the same proportion of types of training he gave us. Much is made in local lore about Wottle's injury problems in the spring and summer of 1972 which limited his training, and the shocking way that subsequently he, a miler, tied the WR and won Olympic gold in an event he didn't specialize in. But I think those two things are probably related, especially after hearing Arthur's comments about Billy Mill's 1964 success being due to the illness that kept him from doing too much hard anaerobic work.
RE: Dave Wottle's training
That's a really interesting post. Thanks.
Nobby, thank you, you=Nobby, not just anyone, for the mention of the Kvalheim thread. I, I=HRE, not just the ninth letter in the alphabet, have read and enjoyed it.
Thanks for the interesting insight. I knew Wottle was Igloi-trained but I just wanted to keep it quiet (just kidding!). In regards to the injury before competition, there has been so many examples: Abebe Bikila's apendix surgery only a few months before the Olympic marathon; Lopes getting hit by a car before LA Olympic marathon; and Dave Wottle... A problem with highly motivated athletes such as these is not undertraining, but overtraining. Barry Magee, who won a bronze medal behind Abebe in 1960 Olympic marathon always speaks of Ray Puckett and Jeff Julian who put super-human effort "just because it was for the Olympics" and trained too hard whereas Magee just carried on his normal training load. Seko in 1984 was the same and so was Salazar.
And here's another thought; one time I remember reading Soh brother's interview and in it Shigeru said, of his finishing 50-something place at Fukuoka marathon one time (a few months before running 2:09), that he did 40k time trial in about 2:15 a week before the marathon. "I guess looking back, that WAS my marathon race..." Whenever I see "ordinary" joggers doing the final long run of 22-mile (not by time but the distance!) a week or two before the marathon. For a 5-hour marathon runner, that's like 4.5-hour run! What are they thinking...?
What time have you run in Marathon Nobby?
Are you from Lydiards Korean trained athletes?
Nah, I only have a modest marathon PR of 2:44...20 pounds ago! I'm from Japan; I coached at Hitachi Women's Track Team with a guy who ran for the late Kiyoshi Nakamura (Seko's coach). A guy by the name of Jack Ralston went to Korea and coached their national team (or a younger generation team) in early 80s. I know Jack well but he didn't know coach me nor was I influenced directly by him. I'm sort of a blend of Lydiardism and Nakamuraism, which leans toward Arthur Lydiard anyways because the basis of entire Japanese training philosophy is the Lydiardism. There have been at least 5 major (I'm talking about at least 5 pages long...RW had about a quarter page on his passing) articles written on the Lydiard training method in some of major Japanese runnnig magazines since he passed away (as much as I've helped the articles and there could be more). Koide, Sakaguchi, Seko... They all still worship Lydiardism.
That is one thing I love about Japanese culture - respect for the great ones who came before and led the way. We Americans have shorter memories. It makes me feel good to know that Arthur is remembered in the Land of the Rising Sun. I hear they also remember names like Magee and Moller.
By the way, I have coached a number of guys who would kill for a 2:44.
Thanks. Magee is the first man to go under 2:20 in Japanese soil. Moller is, well, still considered as Queen of Marathon in Japan (even after Takahashi and Noguchi). In fact, she is quoted in one of the Lydiard articles.
I guess I should have said "on Japanese soil"...unless Magee ran the underground marathon!
Incidentally, I just received a proof for yet another article on Lydiard for a Japanese magazine. The closing comment was the one from Lorraine Moller.
I really don't mean to hog this thread and I really didn't mean to necessarily ask this question to you=HRE specifically but you seem to be more knowledgeable than most of us... When I said Yevgenity Arzhanov being "one of very few Russian successful middle distance runner" it hit me that young people today might argue that there IS another actually pretty darn good one...Yuri Borzakowski (spelling?). Yes, he is a damn good one and has been at the very top for quite some time (though really I don't recall too many others in 800m...). Do you=HRE or anybody else know anything about what kind of training Borzakowski does? I'm very curious.
Against ALL the popular arguments, and you can bash me because I'm saying this simply because I'm "a Lydiard fan", I believe building solid aerobic base is the key to successful 800m running and Owen Anderson's interview with one of the top Kenyan 800m runners, Kiprotichi, some years ago clearly revealed it. And also against ALL the popular arguments, I also believe even-paced running, with the second half evry slightly faster, is physiologically most effective way to run 800m which Borzakowski seems to do (as did Dave Wottle). Very curious to see what kind of training pattern Borzakowski follows...
First off, let me say to all of you what a pleasent surprise it was to find this site and forum. This thread in particular was a great read.
About the only thing I can add to it is I had the priviledge of running with Lydiard for a week in Atlanta during '78 (maybe '79 - I'm getting old) and the man was incredible. I used to train sporadically with Benji Durden and Jeff Galloway (no, I was no where near their class of runner) and during this week I got to tag along when we took Mr. Lydiard out to one of my favorite trails - Kennesaw Mt park had 15+ miles of pure trail, no pavement except for two pavement crossings. We had this series of hills that ended with a long 1/2 mile downhill and as soon as we crested the hill, he took off like a bat out of hell down the hill and was smiling the entire time. This amazing man talked during the entire run about the joys of running, the mental aspect of training and racing, and the right way to train. To this day I am convinced that if anyone had the priviledge to train with Mr. Lydiard they would have been better for the experience, regardless of whether they were an elite runner or not.
Thanks again for rekindling one of my most fond memories. Safe trails to all!
Are you still in Atlanta? As you might guess from my handle, that is my area of residence.
I still love to run at Kennesaw Mountain. Some mates and I do 20+ mi Sunday long runs there - our version of the Waiatarua. I wish I had known Arthur when he could run like that. When he was here last year, at age 87, he was quite hobbled.
I have twice read about Yuri's unorthodox method of training. Would you believe it, an 800m runner who trains xcountry style all winter? Wow, revolutionay! Oh, wait a minute, wasn't their some lunatic from some island out in the middle of nowhere (what do you call that place again...oh yeah, New Gealan or New Zealand, something like that) coaching runners the same way? If I recall, he started using long distance running in coaching 800m-1 mile type runners just after world war II. Hmmm, I wonder if Yuri or his coach every heard of the guys methods?
By the way, Yuri was a xcountry runner before focusing on the 800m. He has competed in 10k road races too. He does focus on endurance and strength before anaerobic lactic tolerance and speed. Voila!
Hodgie-san and Tom D:
Zika Palmer of ZAPfitness finished second at the Twin Cities marathon today with a 9-minute PR. She has been coached by coach Squires for about 12 months on his system from his new book, "Speed with Endurance" (I still think it should have been "Be There, or Be Squires"...!). It was a lot of fun "course hopping" with Coach today; for both 10-miler and the marathon.
I left Atlanta in May of '79 for Korea (thanks to Uncle Sam), moved back to SoCal after the service and now reside in Michigan. Unfortunately, I've only made it back there a few times since I left, but love the town.
The Kennesaw trails were my favorite. We would park at the main lot, do a little 1 1/2 mile warm-up and then go straight up Big Kennesaw, down the back side, then up Little Kennesaw and finish with 10+ miles through the trails. Big and Little took the starch out of your shorts in a hurry, but made the rest of the run seem tame by comparison.
I agree, I was fortunate indeed to catch Mr. Lydiard when he was still quite spry.
Tinman: I love to watch Yuri B run. Man, can that I guy pick up some places in the last 200. Usually runs the first lap dead last, then...BAM! The way he runs away from people seemingly so effortlessly, reminds me of this guy from NZ back in the 1960s. What was his name? Peter something? That guy won some Olympic gold medals, I think. Now, I understand the connection.
Bones: I ran a 50k last year that went up and over both little and big Kennesaw 4 times - once each loop. The last time was a little tough.
Here's a part of Nixon Kiprotich's interview published in Running Research News in April 1995:
NK:...throughout December and January I'll train Monday through Friday, running about 15km at 10:00AM and another 8km at about 5PM each day. It's all easy, aerobic running--at about 4-minute per km--with no speed work at all. Saturday and Sunday are rest days.
RRN:...You run about 115km per week during your base period. What is the balue of this training for you?
NK:...if I don't do my base work and build up my aerobic capacity properly, I have a very hard time maintaining my fitness during the competitive season. Without the base, I just can't sustain fast times for very long; I lose my "peak" quickly.
RRN:...What happens in February and March?
NK: I add in some hill training.
RRN: Do you ever work out with weights?
NK: Never, man. The hill work is my substitute for weight training. Weight work would just bulk me up, making it too easy for me to get injured.
RRN:...How do things change in April?
NK:...Basically I cut way back on mileage and start doing my track workouts (basically Monday through Friday are intervals!).
I meant to say "value". It's either my Japanese typing or Nixon's Kenyan speech??? Oh, can't say that. That's the question part...
Hmmm, that training pattern seems familiar, somehow...
Upon reading "Train Hard, Win Easy--the Kenyan Way", I told the author, Toby Tanser, that I could see some similarity between the Lydiard method and the way Kenyans train. He said that some European coaches went to Kenya and started training them in the 60s when the Lydiard method was the mainstream. It worked so well that they never needed to change it...
After the peak race (5k/10k), the continuation of racing phase begins. Describe in detail what a non/race week and race week would consist, i.e workouts, easy run, long run, etc.